Those of you who use a semi-auto shotgun for defense, what condition do you keep it?
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1KPerDay
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can you explain how to get it to that point?
lemaymiami
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All of my experience with shotguns was taught and reinforced on the street, where you had to make absolutely certain before taking a shot - and I've continued that routine. Never used a semi-auto, pump shotguns only for me in basic riot configuration. Four rounds in the tube - action cocked and locked on an empty chamber, safety on - always, until that moment when you must fire, period. Upon grabbing the weapon.. racked the action using the slide release to un-lock it, then moved out into whatever confrontation was happening. As I advance into position in any situation my trigger finger was never on the trigger - always on the safety.... instead ( with 870's, my preferred weapon...). Thank heavens in most cases a basic riot gun at close quarters is a definite intimidator as well as a one shot fight ender... so only once in 22 years did I ever fire a single shot on the street. I spent more that six months in and out of court over that incident... Not something I'll ever be eager to repeat... but to this day - I'm still following that basic routine any time I reach for the one at my house...
Jake Tenney
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Lots of folks go with a "cruiser ready" setup for semi-autos like your Beretta A300 Ultima Patrol full tube, empty chamber, safety off. That way it’s safe but quick to rack and go. Others prefer full tube, one in the chamber, safety on if they’re comfortable with the controls and confident in no unintended access. It really comes down to what you're most practiced with and your home environment. Just make sure whichever method you choose, you train that way consistently so muscle memory kicks in under stress.
I think it's easier to cycle the action in the dark than to manipulate a safety in the dark. Especially when different long guns have safeties in different places. Manual or semi-auto long guns for home defense I keep chamber empty, safety off.
Wife and I live alone in rural Missouri. Every gun we own is loaded full with a round in the chamber and safety on. Unless it's a revolver. Then its just full. No wondering ever that way.
The two semi shotguns are a Benelli super 90 12 gauge and a Remington 1100 20 gauge. The 12 has 00 buck in it and the 20 has #4 buck. They're both fine closet guns as well as fun to shoot clays with.
The two semi shotguns are a Benelli super 90 12 gauge and a Remington 1100 20 gauge. The 12 has 00 buck in it and the 20 has #4 buck. They're both fine closet guns as well as fun to shoot clays with.
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Load the mag tube to capacity, pull the bolt back not quite all the way and drop a round down on the lifter and ease the bolt back on an empty chamber. Almost like ghost loading. Now just operate the charging handle to chamber the round on the lifter.
Full magazine, empty chamber
Racking the charging handle on a A300UP with a full tube won't chamber a round unless a) the hammer is dropped and a round is kicked on the lifter or b) the carrier button is depressed kicking a round onto the lifter.
Thats why I like my method of a full tube and manually putting one on the lifter, you have a full 8 rounds and an empty chamber. Or you can have a round in the chamber, a full mag tube and then drop one on the lifter (ghost load) for 9 rounds.
I had to figure this thing out when I first got it I was kind of clueless with the European shotguns.
I also have a Beretta A300 Ultima Patrol. I fully load the tube magazine and have one in the chamber with the safety on. I don't keep one in the chamber with my pump shotguns. The pumps are a bit more intuitive to load and I can load a shell from the tube into the chamber more quietly with a pump.
Varminterror
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Do you have any resource which can verify this statement?
Varminterror
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As I've mentioned here several times, after force-on-force training for "wake up to someone standing in your bedroom" scenario, I don't consider a long gun as a nightstand/bedroom gun. The longgun needs room to work, and is a distance weapon, so there ARE areas of my house and property in which a a longgun absolutely makes sense, but in the moment my hand touches my longgun beside my bed, I already have had a loaded and ready pistol in my hand.
Philosophically, if a firearm is meant to be used, it needs a round in the chamber to be used. If the weapon is "secondary," not needed for immediate use, then it need not be ready for immediate use.
"Cruiser ready" is a condition developed based on the same philosophy - the officers are expected to already have a loaded pistol on their hip, ready to fire without manipulation, so the time spent charging the longgun and any potential risk of mis-feeding during this manipulation are of minimal or no tactical consequence. The officer's pistol is ready to engage immediate, present threat, and the officer is available to access their longgun. Keeping the longgun completely empty isn't prudent, but the risk of ND/AD or use by unintended users for a relatively unattended, non-primary weapon, without immediate and present threat outweighs the tactical consequence of the charging time. The primary is loaded and ready to fire, the secondary is loaded and ready to be charged.
So my longguns are either loaded mag in/loaded mag ready/tube mag loaded + chamber empty. I'm not handing loose shotshells in a stressful situation if I don't have to - I'm starting from an advantaged mode of preparation and only reverting to fine motor skills upon the failure of primary action to resolve the threat.
Loaded pistol on my nightstand or on my hip. Loaded shotgun or carbine with empty chamber nearby, collocated with chest rig for extra mags, flashlight.
Philosophically, if a firearm is meant to be used, it needs a round in the chamber to be used. If the weapon is "secondary," not needed for immediate use, then it need not be ready for immediate use.
"Cruiser ready" is a condition developed based on the same philosophy - the officers are expected to already have a loaded pistol on their hip, ready to fire without manipulation, so the time spent charging the longgun and any potential risk of mis-feeding during this manipulation are of minimal or no tactical consequence. The officer's pistol is ready to engage immediate, present threat, and the officer is available to access their longgun. Keeping the longgun completely empty isn't prudent, but the risk of ND/AD or use by unintended users for a relatively unattended, non-primary weapon, without immediate and present threat outweighs the tactical consequence of the charging time. The primary is loaded and ready to fire, the secondary is loaded and ready to be charged.
So my longguns are either loaded mag in/loaded mag ready/tube mag loaded + chamber empty. I'm not handing loose shotshells in a stressful situation if I don't have to - I'm starting from an advantaged mode of preparation and only reverting to fine motor skills upon the failure of primary action to resolve the threat.
Loaded pistol on my nightstand or on my hip. Loaded shotgun or carbine with empty chamber nearby, collocated with chest rig for extra mags, flashlight.
jmorris
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One could qualify a statement like that and say you can't offer a handgun for sale in California unless it has passed drop tests.
Handguns Certified for Sale
I don't see that they are required for long guns there. These guys might have data on the subject.
Firearms Testing
Applied Technical Services' experts in our forensic analysis department have established a dependable reputation in firearms testing.
atslab.com
Varminterror
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One could qualify a statement like that and say you can't offer a handgun for sale in California unless it has passed drop tests.
Handguns Certified for Sale
oag.ca.gov
I don't see that they are required for long guns there. These guys might have data on the subject.
Firearms Testing
Applied Technical Services' experts in our forensic analysis department have established a dependable reputation in firearms testing.
So the short answer is "no."
The counter argument could be more readily made - we have demonstrated risk of handguns not being drop safe, so handguns require certification by standardized testing to be approved for sale in California, but no such risk exists for long guns so no such certification is required.
mljdeckard
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Magazine locked, bolt open. I never have small children in my house.
Varminterror
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I was trying to be nice by not pointing out your ..... interesting .... choice to use California's handgun requirements as valid evidence of anything at all...
Mine might be a unique case. I live in a very rural location and the threat can be both 2 legged and 4 legged. All my home defense weapons are kept in condition one. It includes 3 pistols, one shotgun, one lever-action 45-70, and one 300 ACC SBR. The pistols are all kept in a hard holster (shoulder bag near so I can keep the pistol when I get to a long gun) and the rifles are mounted racks (no fear of falling over & easy to grab). They are all in different locations based on practical anticipated need. I'm very proficient with each and practice often. Practice includes getting to them in the near dark (practice that with dummy rounds). If I "go for" one it's anticipated that I may need to use it immediately and I've found condition one, for me, is the fastest and least chance of messing up (easy to screw up going from condition two to one when adrenaline is high). If conditions permit, my preferred weapon is the SBR in or out of the house. I'm most accurate with it and find it easier to keep full control even in small spaces...but you have to really practice with it for that to work. That said...the shotgun is a second choice. 7 rounds of 9 pellet flight control OO and yields a 5 inch pattern at 20 yards (Vang Comp barrel). Devastating. I also keep 3 good trauma kits in strategic locations (one a bit fuller and easy to sling over a shoulder if I'm away from the house). Yep...a bit overkill...but help is a long way off.
Good Luck all....and practice with your particular setups. That's what will make the most difference
Good Luck all....and practice with your particular setups. That's what will make the most difference
herrwalther
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In my teaching courses for ROTC and Army marksmanship we did a little exercise to debunk this commonly held notion about drop safe rifles. Another instructor and I would load an old M16 (usually A2) with a magazine with blanks, chamber, safety on. And throw it around a parking lot for a few minutes. Scuffs up the rifle bad but shows that a firearm doesn't just "go off." Built a lot of confidence with new shooters.
All this. I can get to my bedside handgun much faster than either long gun I have setup. They are just a couple extra steps away. But they are the secondary weapons. If I have to go to a long gun, something has really gone sour when it comes to two legged varmints. But I also live in a very rural area. And every time I have grabbed my long gun, it has been to deal with critters and not people, thankfully. One example was just the other night. My current dog hates coyotes. Cannot stand to even hear them. If there is one on the property she will not let me sleep at all until its run off or dead. I keep a 5 round AR mag loaded with 68gr HP ammo just for this purpose. I am not stomping through the woods at night with a 9mm handgun to take care of a yote when an AR or shotgun is the far superior option.
As far as chamber loaded or empty, when it comes to a shotgun I leave it full. The rack to scare notion is silly as I mentioned. But with a shotgun you have reduced capacity to begin with. No reason to sacrifice that +1. For my AR, I keep two magazines loaded nearby. Loaded for different critters.
luzyfuerza
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Here's one:
youtu.be
And since the topic is shotguns, here's another:
www.luckygunner.com
These are popular, not scientific indicators. But they're good enough for quick discussion points.
Carrying a Gun with a Live Round in the Chamber?? Massad Ayoob answers the question. Critical Mas 55
We are answering questions from You, the viewer. One of them was, "Is it safe to carry a gun with a round in the chamber?" Massad Ayoob looks at the histor...
youtu.be
And since the topic is shotguns, here's another:
Cruiser Ready: How to Store a Home Defense Shotgun [2020 Update]
Today we're revisiting our tutorial on how to keep your home defense shotgun ready for use. We suggest the "cruiser ready" condition.
www.luckygunner.com
These are popular, not scientific indicators. But they're good enough for quick discussion points.
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luzyfuerza
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I'm an engineer, but definitely not a firearms designer. If I were going to provide a more "scientific" basis for this description, it would go like this:
Most modern pistols have features included in their designs which make firing when dropped MUCH less likely. Of course, since nothing designed by man is perfect, even these features can occasionally fail. But older pistol designs (e.g. the first version of Browning's 1911) and even some recent designs (e.g. the first iteration of the P320) don't include effective protective features and are more likely to fire when dropped.
By contrast, most designs for both older and newer long guns do NOT have protective features like the striker blocks, the trigger dingus, or rebound slides that are common in modern handguns. This makes them MORE LIKELY to fire when dropped or bumped. Will they always fire? Not a chance. But the probabilities ARE higher.
Oh, and long gun "safety" mechanisms generally only block trigger movement; they do not prevent firing pin contact with a live round.
Most modern pistols have features included in their designs which make firing when dropped MUCH less likely. Of course, since nothing designed by man is perfect, even these features can occasionally fail. But older pistol designs (e.g. the first version of Browning's 1911) and even some recent designs (e.g. the first iteration of the P320) don't include effective protective features and are more likely to fire when dropped.
By contrast, most designs for both older and newer long guns do NOT have protective features like the striker blocks, the trigger dingus, or rebound slides that are common in modern handguns. This makes them MORE LIKELY to fire when dropped or bumped. Will they always fire? Not a chance. But the probabilities ARE higher.
Oh, and long gun "safety" mechanisms generally only block trigger movement; they do not prevent firing pin contact with a live round.
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What about the Ruger M77 MK II 3 position safeties? I thought the firing pin couldn't contact a chambered round when in full back safe position.
Varminterror
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As an engineer (typing to another engineer), can you validate this assumption?
I could instead make the more valid design observation that the absence of drop safeties in longguns can imply they are less likely to fire when dropped, possibly owing to any of a dozen design differences allowed by the difference in scale of the action mechanism, such the drop safeties are simply impertinent in the longgun design. Belt and suspenders, as it were.
Some do, some don't. Marlin leverguns, as an example, have 2 piece firing pins which preclude the rifle being dropped on the hammer from driving the firing pin into the primer, and further many firearms have hammer block safeties for the same purpose, and multiple bolt action designs have 3 position safeties which lock the striker from forward movement. Further, most longgun designs have firing pin masses which either can't promote sufficient inertia to overcome their return spring, or to ignite the primer itself upon a drop (the AR-15 firing pin as an example, despite all of the fearmongering about the witness dimples left on primers when closing the bolt into battery - which, if memory serves, represents a drop from over 16ft).
So yeah, there's a lot of engineering in most long gun designs which would represent intentional design for drop safety.
Mauser lover
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On the AR... something I've been thinking about...
If the rifle is dropped with sufficient force to go off, wouldn't it have to be dropped on the muzzle?
If the rifle is dropped with sufficient force to go off, wouldn't it have to be dropped on the muzzle?
luzyfuerza
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Mossberg 500
Parts here are designed for the Mossberg 500 pump action shotgun chambered in 12/20 gauge or .410 bore unless noted otherwise. MGW offers replacement stocks, forends, barrels, sights, recoil pads, choke tubes, pins, springs and other small parts for this tried-and-true firearm. Service your...
Since the thread is discussing common defensive shotguns, I thought that it might be valuable to look for the parts that could be used to make one type of common defensive shotgun "drop safe".
In this exploded parts diagram, I don't see a rebound slide, a trigger dingus, or a firing pin/striker block on a Mossberg 500. I do see a safety that (only) blocks the trigger. Note that the firing pin spring shown in the diagram is NOT present in the design of older 500s.
A combination of heavy spring and light firing pin can help reduce the likelihood of unintended discharge on being dropped, but I don't see any components that actively block the firing pin if the trigger isn't pulled.
For those readers who may be unfamiliar, this source discusses these two approaches to "drop safety":
An Official Journal Of The NRA | Firing-Pin Safeties: Overview & Function-Check
Some pistols have firing-pin safeties and some of them don’t seem to. Can you explain how a firing-pin safety works and how to check to make sure it is working? Do striker-fired pistols have striker safeties?
But I'm not a firearms designer, of course.
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