Those who've had a ND, and those who are going to.

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Remo, Personally, I've tried to hold myself to the utmost standard... too many scary moments from other people.

If I was still at the line running the cylinder through on target, and the skipped round had discharged in the second, or third cycle it would have been fine.

Once I had that cylinder open, I should have finished the dump rather than answering the other shooter's questions, and then demonstrating the problem to them.

"Malfunction-induced operator error resulting in accidental discharge"... Too many words. I'll stick to using a short profanity, redouble my vigilance and keep this in my mind to prevent Number two.
 
Got something against motorcycles? I know several people who have had long riding careers, and are still riding, and who have never been down. In some cases several hundred thousand miles. I must confess to going down once on the street, on a dirt bike, in 1981...since then, never, and I ride 12-15,000 miles per year; motorcycles are my primary transportation. The principle is the same: the unwary doesn't recognize that he is in the progression that can lead to an accident. Accidents are rarely the result of a single mistake, but the culmination of a progression of them. If you get far enough into the progression, an accident may be likely or inevitable (going into a curve to fast on a motorcycle, racking the slide before dropping the magazine and considering the gun unloaded); the trick is to recognize that you may be in it, and get out of it. The poster who told the story of the ND due to the wrong procedure in unloading the gun recognized the progression, but couldn't act fast enough to stop it. Same on a motorcycle, you must be able to identify a progresssion that is developing that is leading to an increased or likely chance of an accident. It requires you to be alert, aware, and have the requisite degree of skills and/or knowledge.
 
Ok, my experience was about 15-20 years ago with a 22 revolver, 6 shot. I emptied it and closed the cylinder and set it down for about 3 seconds. (The cylinder had had some fired and some unfired cartridges in it) Then I saw a bug and snatched up the revolver, cocked, aimed, and pulled trigger expecting a click and a "pretend" dead insect. It fired. I thought I was hallucinating. I fully expected to open the cylinder and see a completely unloaded gun and then I would conclude either a) I am insane, or b) the gun is demonically possessed. I am not joking on this. These were literally the two options that went through my mind at that instant. I was actually scared to know which one it was. With hands trembling, I slowly opened the cylinder and saw an empty cylinder except for one fired cartridge. I closed the cylinder without ejecting, and set it down and just rested for a few minutes thinking, trying to figure out what just happened and how reliable my ability to figure out what happened could be.

Then came the test.

Unloading the gun and checking maybe 5 times to make sure the gun was in fact unloaded, I wanted to dry fire it once to make sure it didn't magically load itself and fire. I wasn't 100% sure what this test would prove, either that I wasn't insane or that the gun wasn't possessed, or maybe none of the above. It didn't fire. And after checking, it was indeed still unloaded.

So I rested a few more minutes and thought about what kind of logical conclusions I could make from this test. eventually I decided there is no way to prove to myself that I am not insane. I was over thinking it. Most probable I was not insane or in possession of a demonically possessed handgun and that the simplest explanation is usually the correct one.

operator error. Had to be.


My final judgement was this...when I ejected the cartridges, I short stroked it and one didn't fully eject. then when I closed the cylinder, the partially ejected unfired cartridge hit the frame in just the right way that is slid home into the cylinder. Being unfired, it would fall into the chamber easy if muzzle was pointed down. The odds of this happening seem so extremely small to me but it's all I can come up with. And even more astounding is that the one loaded chamber was the one that lined up when I drew down on that insect.
 
Got something against motorcycles? I know several people who have had long riding careers, and are still riding, and who have never been down. In some cases several hundred thousand miles. I must confess to going down once on the street, on a dirt bike, in 1981...since then, never, and I ride 12-15,000 miles per year; motorcycles are my primary transportation. The principle is the same: the unwary doesn't recognize that he is in the progression that can lead to an accident. Accidents are rarely the result of a single mistake, but the culmination of a progression of them. If you get far enough into the progression, an accident may be likely or inevitable (going into a curve to fast on a motorcycle, racking the slide before dropping the magazine and considering the gun unloaded); the trick is to recognize that you may be in it, and get out of it. The poster who told the story of the ND due to the wrong procedure in unloading the gun recognized the progression, but couldn't act fast enough to stop it. Same on a motorcycle, you must be able to identify a progresssion that is developing that is leading to an increased or likely chance of an accident. It requires you to be alert, aware, and have the requisite degree of skills and/or knowledge.
not sure if this is directed at me.

I have been riding nonstop for over 30 years. I have nothing against motorcycles. I recognize that we do not have in our control every variable out there. We can be struck by lightning out of the blue and be killed. Heck, we can be struck by a meteorite and be killed. You are guilty of extreme arrogance if you believe your skills and wits are the only reason you are alive. Random luck plays a part in every single second of our lives. It is a mathematical certainty that every single motorcyclists will eventually be killed on a motorcycle if he/she rides long enough. How long it takes to reach death is hard to determine. it could be a million years to kill off every last rider. I don't know and I'm not about to sit down and try to do the math.

firearms is a little bit different. We are in control of much more of the variables. but we do not check everything. Only arrogant fools would claim to be in control of every variable. How many people tear down their gun after every shot, and run tests on every part to ascertain parts integrity?

We are not gods and we are not infallible. We WILL make a mistake eventually if we live long enough. The thing is, people are too stupid and/or dishonest to accurately determine their own limits. That applies to all of us. we are all making decision every minute of every day of our lives based partly on ignorance. No one has all the answers or a complete data set.

Imagine this test:

A higher power grants you everlasting life. The catch is you are required to perform a simple task over and over for eternity. The task is to locate a coin on the table in front of you and recognize that it is "heads" up...then pick up the coin with your right hand, transfer it to your left hand, then transfer it to your right hand, then put it back on the table heads up. You are not allowed to make a mistake or to drop the coin.

How many years do you think you can do this simple task without making a mistake?

If you answered infinity, you are an idiot.

This little mental exercise should be all the proof you need to conclude that everyone will have a negligent discharge eventually if they live long enough.
 
What really amuses me- guys who say they will never have a negligent discharge.
Next time I run into one maybe I'll ask to use their ability to forsee the future to give me some winning lotto numbers. That would be nice!
 
I think I can understand why they are being so stubborn about their claim that they will never have a negligent discharge though. Once you surrender to the inevitability(provided you live long enough) of a negligent discharge, you could become less vigilant in preventing it and you are, in a sense, pre-excusing yourself for the negligent discharge that is yet to happen. That could be considered a cop out.
 
Here's a question for those of you who have had NDs: Are you going to have another one? If your philosophy is that everyone is destined to have an ND, why not two, or three, or more NDs during your lifetime?
 
I don't think it works that way, ogie.

We all have different skill levels. We all have different levels of determination and abilities to block out distractions. There are surely many more personal attributes that effect our likelihood of making a mistake.

Call it our personal failure rate. we don't know what it is for sure. But we all know or have known people that seem to have a pathetically poor failure rate for making mistakes. Lets say the joe shmo has been evaluated and scientifically determined that he will have a NG once every 50 years.

We don't know if his first NG will occur early in that 50 year span or late. Also, we don't know if the next NG in the second 50 year span will occur early in that time span or late in that time span. He could have one NG in the 49th year and one NG in the 51st year.

There's no way to tell.
 
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Imagine this test:

A higher power grants you everlasting life. The catch is you are required to perform a simple task over and over for eternity. The task is to locate a coin on the table in front of you and recognize that it is "heads" up...then pick up the coin with your right hand, transfer it to your left hand, then transfer it to your right hand, then put it back on the table heads up. You are not allowed to make a mistake or to drop the coin.

How many years do you think you can do this simple task without making a mistake?

If you answered infinity, you are an idiot.

This little mental exercise should be all the proof you need to conclude that everyone will have a negligent discharge eventually if they live long enough.
Of course you'd make a mistake. Your life would be so miserable, you'd WANT to screw up to end it.

Checking a chamber isn't a terrible, rote, chore. And you don't have to do it nonstop till the end of days. If it's too much of a chore, all you have to do is not pick up the gun in the first place.

So in your example, if you got bored of picking up quarters, all you'd have to do is get up from the table and do something else that has nothing to do with quarters.

Some people have to handle guns daily, perhaps even under stress and/or distractions, whether they want to or not. Some are cut out for it. Some aren't. And there's also the fact that no matter how much you like something, once you do it for a living it becomes a chore. But the rest of us can choose when and how we handle firearms. Yes, some of us will make bad choices.

One in particular showed that if you check your chamber a few thousand times and it is empty your mind gets trained to see it empty.
First of all, I bet this study they do the chamber check 3000 times in a row. IOW, in a rote, meaningless fashion that has nothing to do with most of our real worlds. That is, unless it's your job to chamber check a pile of 3000 weapons where you have no personal responsibility for what happens if you screw up.

Most firearms owners may not even chamber check a weapon that many times in our lifetime. And that figure will be stretched over a lifetime, not one day in an artificial environment.

When you get to the point where you are just going through the motions, it's time to stop handling firearms.

I was at a match where this young nub raced to show clear at the end of each stage.* I don't know whether he was an idiot and thought that it was part of his time. Or whether he was an even bigger idiot and thought it looked cool. When you unload a gun, you have all the time in the world.

*He also got called for "trigger" twice. Scary thing was an old fella ran around with his finger on the trigger of his 1911, twice, and no one called him for it.
 
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I would be the first to concede that there have been several instances where nothing more than luck has kept me from crashing. Luck definitely counts. There are many ways to lessen the chances though, and I utilize every one of them.

I most emphatically do not subscribe to the idea that a crash (or ND) is inevitable. I've never had a ND...is it possible I could have one? Of course it is. That's why I make sure, every time, because I know full well I am absolutely capable of doing something dumb.
 
I would be the first to concede that there have been several instances where nothing more than luck has kept me from crashing. Luck definitely counts. There are many ways to lessen the chances though, and I utilize every one of them.
I agree, luck has some aspect. But once you realize how close you have come to an ND, it should change from luck to change in protocol. I'd expect someone who's handled firearms for a long time to have passed beyond the luck stage.
 
SCARY STUFF this. Never had an ND, but I fear them. Good heads up thread.
 
I agree, luck has some aspect. But once you realize how close you have come to an ND, it should change from luck to change in protocol. I'd expect someone who's handled firearms for a long time to have passed beyond the luck stage.
sheesh, you just don't get it.

what was luck for you and a second chance to gird up your safety checks was a NG for the next guy.
 
Quote:

"I wonder if those who claim it is inconceivable that they would have an ND tend to be less careful about muzzle control. Whereas those who have had an ND may tend to be more careful to control the muzzle so that even if there is an ND, it is unlikely to cause any harm. It would not surprise me if those who deny the possibility of having an ND are more likely in the long run to injure themselves or somebody else."

Or on the other hand perhaps it is just human nature for people that screw up to think that everyone else is destined to screw up as well.
I didn't say that "everyone else is destined to screw up as well". You totally missed my point, which was that someone who claims it is inconceivable that they will have an ND may well be careless about muzzle control -- after all, why bother controlling the muzzle if an ND is inconceivable? Putting it another way, those who recognize the distinct possibility of an ND will probably be the ones to take all the precautions to minimize the risk and, vice versa, those who deny the risk will probably be the people one should stay well away from.
 
sheesh, you just don't get it.

what was luck for you and a second chance to gird up your safety checks was a NG for the next guy.
I get it. I'm lucky that when I was the first of my family and friends to be interested in firearms, I didn't put a hole in my wall on the second day. I had a close call where I had my finger on the trigger to dryfire in a safe direction, but then realized I had done something wrong. I don't fault anyone for having an ND and learning from it, as long as they were adhering to all the other basic gun safety rules.

But there are too many people relying on luck and memory after years of bad safety procedures. To hear the belief that an ND is a matter of time is kind of saddening. I believe it's a matter of experience and understanding.

Heck, some people have bad memory or are easily distracted. Even here, they should be able to figure out that they just can't trust themselves to dry fire a gun. If you never pull the trigger unless you WANT it to go bang, your problem will be solved.

My "something wrong" was deciding to see what my Glock felt like to hold with a loaded magazine, when I had just been dryfiring it all day. Now I know that because I allow myself to dryfire at home, I personally need to avoid intentionally handling a loaded firearm at home, as well. If it's loaded, it stays in the holster. I also now know that a pistol doesn't feel much different with a loaded mag. :)
 
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if you check your chamber a few thousand times and it is empty your mind gets trained to see it empty. Then when there is a round in it your mind sees it empty.
Let's suppose that's true. Is there a companion study that says that when you then put your finger in the chamber, you will feel an empty chamber if it's filled; or, if you stroke the ejector rod, rounds will not fall to the floor?

If you're not paying attention to what you're doing, then sure, you won't notice a thing. So pay attention.
Next time I run into one maybe I'll ask to use their ability to forsee the future to give me some winning lotto numbers.
I have no control over the lottery numbers, but I have complete control over how I handle guns. Every single time. Responsibility accepted.

NDs are not random, probability-driven events. It is NOT your number comes up, and you have one. I have no sympathy for the attitude, "it was just my turn to have one."
If you believe your gun to be empty, and you aim it at something safe to shoot, and you pull the trigger expecting a "click", and it shoots, is that a true negligent discharge?
Describes mine to a T. Yes.

BTW, I have no problem with calling that an accidental or unintentional discharge...as long as we're all clear IT WAS MY FAULT.
I wonder if those who claim it is inconceivable that they would have an ND tend to be less careful about muzzle control.
First, of course it is conceivable I will have another ND...if I do not pay attention and don't do double-checks. And, yes, it is inconceivable to me that anyone who just did a double-check that his firearm is completely unloaded while paying attention to what he was doing will have an ND in the next couple of seconds.

As to muzzle control, perhaps one day if we meet, I can clear a firearm, close the action, hand it to you...and you can try to point it at me to see what happens. Then we can talk about how lax I am about muzzle control. :)
 
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To those who say they have NEVER had a ND or an AD.... the Jury is still out, as you are still alive and still own and handle firearms... Never say never... They are not common, but they can happen to ANYONE....

To those that Ride motorcycles and have NEVER been down... See above statement...

I'm glad you are ok... safety rules are in place for a reason, one to prevent from happening, and others, for when they do happen, nobody gets hit...

Lessons learned... Your not the only one that it has happened to.. Good Luck to you...
 
To those that Ride motorcycles and have NEVER been down... See above statement...
Apples and oranges. There are a lot of external variables over which one has no control when riding motorcycles. Mechanical/tire failure, road hazards, wildlife, other drivers, etc.

With an ND, the only person pulling the trigger on a loaded chamber is you. It is 100% avoidable if you follow all the rules and double-check the chamber 100% of the time. Nobody makes you pull the trigger.


IMO.
 
Exactly. On a motorcycle, you are sometimes put into unpredictable situations that require complex responses. And sometimes other drivers cause accidents that are unavoidable. Riding a motorcycle also requires the use of both feet and both hands, while making constant calculations of position, speed, and upcoming road conditions and curves.

A firearm is much simpler. If you want to compare an ND to a motorcycle accident, lets make a better comparison. It would be like saying you accidentally gunned the throttle when you actually wanted to stop. Or you accidentally turned the key when you didn't mean to start your bike.

If you ever pull the trigger on a gun in a hurry, it should be because you need a bullet to exit the muzzle in a hurry. I wouldn't fault the guy that accidentally squeezed off a round too fast with a bear charging him. But sitting around in your bedroom with other people in the house and putting a hole in the wall ain't the same thing as having a motorcycle accident.

I've been down on a motorcycle. Car didn't see me and gunned it into the street, trying to cross to turn left. Right in front of me. My only (slim to none) chance was to swerve hard right and hope his tail cleared before it took off my leg. Meanwhile he saw me as he was already more than halfway into the road and slammed the brakes, skidding to a complete stop - in a perfectly executed road block, just a split second before I T-boned him. I know what it feels like to fly like Superman... except for the landing.

The other problem with the analogy is that a motorcycle rider puts only himself at risk. The moron who caused the accident wasn't the one that broke his leg. When you have an ND in an urban environment, you may be putting other people at risk.

Yes, the more years you drive, the more likely you are to be involved in an accident. But the less likely that you will be the one to cause it. Insurance rates drop dramatically past the age of 25 for a good reason. Saying an ND is a matter of time is backwards. If you make it past the learning stage, there's no reason you shouldn't be free and clear. At least until the Alzheimer's kicks in. If everyone under the age of 25 was restricted from driving on Sundays, the accident rate on Sunday would be almost nil.
 
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GLOOB, most people who have NDs know the rules. Some of them had an ND because they broke a rule that they fully understood. Others followed the rules but were somehow still caught out (we have had a couple of examples of how that is possible). Perhaps also the rules as commonly understood do not cover every eventuality. I bet everyone who had an ND thought it most likely would not happen to them. Perhaps some, like you, were certain it would never happen to them.

When people bring up the inevitability in the long run, they just mean that we are all fallible and liable to mistakes in every aspect of our lives, gun handling included. That doesn't mean every single person will have an ND in their lifetime, skill, self-discipline and luck all play a part.

I applaud the OP and everyone else who owns up to an ND because they provide lessons for everyone else.
 
Hmmm. Fifty years of shooting hundreds of firearms with several hundred thousands of rounds and not a single ND and never even close to one.

I handle firearms safer today than I ever have (not that I ever handled them in an unsafe manner, but my skills have improved with better techniques and more knowledge).

I wonder what is in store for me in the future especially as regularly diligent, without exception, that I am?

Also, fifty years of motorcycling and forty years of sport parachuting. Take the "those who are going to..." position to a drop zone and see how far it gets you.

Dan
 
Hmmm. Fifty years of shooting hundreds of firearms with several hundred thousands of rounds and not a single ND and never even close to one.
As we get older, some of us become less competent. Some people have to give up driving, for example.

I am suspicious when you say you are now safer than before though you were never unsafe before. Either safety is absolute or it is relative. You can't have it both ways. Any reasonable person of course believes it is relative. No one is infallible.
 
Yup. I agree it's relative. But you can create and follow a safety procedure so darn safe that the chance is negligible. The number of occurrences is far higher that it need be.

The problem with ND's is that people are taught the universal gun safety rules. Then they are told that it's ok to dry fire firearms. NO. You can't dry fire without willfully breaking at least 2 rules. And one of the rules is permanently, irreversibly thrown out the window - 1. Every firearm is loaded. When you allow yourself to dry fire, rule 1 becomes "Every firearm is loaded... except when it's not loaded." If you can't figure out how to dry fire safely, you ought to stick to the 4 rules. Dry firing should not be done without extra, carefully considered precautions.
 
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As we get older, some of us become less competent. Some people have to give up driving, for example.

I am suspicious when you say you are now safer than before though you were never unsafe before. Either safety is absolute or it is relative. You can't have it both ways. Any reasonable person of course believes it is relative. No one is infallible.

Criminy, do we have to beat this to freakin' death? Let me be very specific. I am using more comprehensive, safer techniques with layers of safety that I didn't apply before. I was NOT less safe, just less comprehensive.

When I started shooting, there was not the "stick your finger in the chamber to physically make sure the chamber is empty" routine, we did visual.

I'll stop shooting before I become unsafe in handling. I stopped sport parachuting because of a slight degradation in my depth perception that my glasses correct for by I don't want to jump with them.

Dan
 
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