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THR Group Project - PISTOL - Advanced Reloading Concepts and Discussions

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by LiveLife, Apr 14, 2015.

  1. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - COMPENSATE FOR MIXED RANGE BRASS CASE LENGTH VARIATION
    - HOW TO OBTAIN MORE CONSISTENT OAL/COL


    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9916478#post9916478

    That's the target we aim for. Depending on the press type/bullet brand/brass condition etc., reloaders may experience +/- several thousdandths to even hundredths in OAL/COL variation.

    It's similar to powder charge used. We may aim for say 5.0 grains but depending on the measure/powder used, we may get +/- .1 gr variance to .2+ gr variance.

    +1. Depending on the brand/manufacturing process and type of bullets/nose profile along with how rough the shipping company employees treat the bullet boxes (that could cause the bullets to be out of round), you will have variations in OAL/COL, especially for progressive press with shell plate tilt/deflection.

    Yes, due to reasons posted above. AFAIK, Lee pistol dies have rounded bullet seating stem that pushes on the side of the bullet tip (ogive) and not the tip. So different bullet nose tip geometry will produce different OAL. And don't worry about the "floating" turret as the final OAL/deepest bullet seating depth will be produced when the turret is pushed up against the frame (same for Pro 1000/Load Master). ;) (Using resized brass in progressive press will reduce shell plate tilt/deflection and using the proper/custom bullet seating stem will produce more consistent OAL/COL)

    Not that significant if you are not at max OAL as gas leak during "bullet jump" from case neck to start of rifling will absorb some chamber pressure variance.

    However IMHO, if you are using max OAL and did not factor in resized case length variations from mixed range brass, this may affect chamber pressure variance enough to show on chrono/target group size.

    If the resized case length variance is too great, shorter cases won't headspace on the case mouth but rather off the extractor (essentially rattle loose inside the chamber until the expanding gas pushes the case base against the breech wall face). Due to these reasons, when I am conducting load development with mixed range brass for max/working OAL determination, I will measure the variance of resized case length and subtract the average variance and use it as my "Revised max/working OAL/COL" to compensate.
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
  2. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    = Finalizing discussion topic =

    So this is what I have so far regards to obtaining more consistent OAL/COL when using mixed range brass:

    What do you think?

    Is this enough to finalize this discussion topic?
     
  3. jell-dog

    jell-dog Member.

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    Delete
     
    Last edited: May 24, 2015
  4. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Any other comments before we finalize HOW TO OBTAIN MORE CONSISTENT OAL/COL?

    I mean, is that all there is to obtaining consistent OAL?

    We could add "- Use accurate calipers" and "- Learn to use calipers more accurately" ... ;):D

    What do you think?
     
  5. ljnowell

    ljnowell Member

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    Using measuring tools properly is good too. I used to teach auto mechanics. I can tell you this, when teaching your average guy how to use calipers/micrometers I can take ten guys and give them the same tool and the same part and ask them to measure it. Out of ten guys it's not uncommon to get 6 or 7 different measurements. It takes time to learn the "feel."

    Obviously it's not the same as what we do, but it is good to learn to be consistent in your measurements.
     
  6. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Since using calipers is subjective to the user, we could leave it out of this topic and add it as another topic under "Reloading Equipment".
     
  7. mensch1970

    mensch1970 Member

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    Please forgive this red herring, but:

    I joined this forum primarily to answer a question I've had for years. When suppression is desired for a round that is supersonic. Why not decrease velocity by increasing bullet weight. In particular I'm thinking of the 5.56 X 45 mm round, one whose effectiveness is predicated primarily on velocity. It seems like cutting the legs off of a round like that by decreasing powder charge to decrease velocity and eliminate bullet crack would take away too much from it's performance. It seems to me like shooting a heavier bullet with a given powder charge would preserve some of the round's effectiveness since a heavier, slower projectile still carries substantial inertia. The logic in my thinking is a based on the energies of a bowling ball rolling at 100 feet per second is possibly quite comparable to a 150 grain bullet at 1500 feet per second. I'm sure there is some elemental flaw in the physics of my rationale, at least in the special set of physical laws that apply to firearms. I was hoping someone in this forum could shed some light on this for me.
     
  8. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    mensch1970, welcome to THR.

    There is another "Advanced Reloading Concepts and Discussions" for rifle but since your question is pertinent to pistol as well, I will reply - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=778221

    You are correct. When suppression is desired, many prefer to use velocities below 1,050 fps to eliminate the supersonic "crack".

    So instead of 5.56x45mm 55-63 gr bullet traveling at 3,000+ fps, 7.62x35mm (.300 AAC Blackout) 220-247 gr bullet traveling below 1,050 fps will produce subsonic velocities that will produce greater suppression. Since conversion to .300 BLK only requires barrel swap, .300 BLK is increasingly becoming more popular.

    I am not a hunter (my wife's family hunts and may become one for retirement) but many have taken deers with 7.62x39mm and believe the .300 BLK has slightly better ballistics. I don't know anyone who hunts with 220-247 gr subsonic loads (539-605 ft lbs) but many hunters adhere to 1000 ft lbs at @100 yards for "ethical" kill but some posted taking deer with as low as 400 ft lb loads.

    So if you want to further discuss the effectiveness of subsonic .300 BLK loads, you may want to post them on Hunting category - http://www.thehighroad.org/forumdisplay.php?f=30
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
  9. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Before I finalize and close the discussion on the first topic for this thread, today being Memorial Day, I did some reflecting with my morning coffee. Although I was a medic in the Army, my attempt to deploy for the first Gulf war (1990-1991) was not successful due to ground war ending too fast and I never saw combat. I tip my hat to those who bravely served and actively contribute on THR.

    As I read through some of the topics, I reflected on William Edwards Deming's thoughts on quality:

    "We do not know what quality is

    Lack of knowledge … that is the problem

    We can do something about our problems, or we can continue the way we are

    There is no knowledge without theory (hence "Reloading Concepts and Discussions")

    We should be guided by theory, not by numbers

    Without theory there is nothing to modify or learn

    Without theory we can only copy (think load development vs load recipes ;))

    We want best efforts guided by theory

    Understanding variation is the key to success in quality

    We must understand variation (for us, reloading variables)

    You can not hear what you do not understand

    We should work on our process, not the outcome of our processes (think reloading consistency to produce consistent chamber pressures/MV/SD)

    When people try to do what they can not do, they wish to give up

    When we cooperate, everybody wins (The "High Road" notion)

    You do not find knowledge in a dictionary, only information (dictionary = load books/manuals/published load data)

    Information is not knowledge. Let’s not confuse the two" (Absolutely!)

    IMHO, knowledge is derived from information but wisdom is how to use knowledge properly and gained from making mistakes or from mistakes of others. ;)

    So I will try to "infuse" Deming's thoughts on quality as we move forward to finalize discussion topics and range test some of our concepts with objective data.
     
    Last edited: May 25, 2015
  10. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - EVALUATING PISTOL LOADS

    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9920149#post9920149

    I have a good chance of getting a job change that will move my work location to the city where my sister/BIL live. If/when that happens, I will have full access to my retired BIL's workshop to build the prototype machine rest. I am designing two versions, one that is similar to Ransom Rest and another that is similar to now discontinued Caldwell model. I am currently working to simplify the designs so the parts will lock up consistently with the second version resetting automatically.

    The machine rests will be instrumental in evaluating accuracy of pistol loads, especially at longer distances of 25/50 yards. I thought about using Just Right carbine with 9/40/45 barrel conversions and scope but I think using the actual pistols will be better.

    I think I have enough materials to build several machine rests. Once the prototype is finalized and working well, I am planning to distribute them to several THR mods/members so we can perform multiple/simultaneous testing of same powder/bullet loads using different pistols.
     
  11. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - RESIZING DIE SELECTION

    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9923755#post9923755
    If you reload 40S&W, you are going to run into so called "Glocked" brass which is "catch all" phrase for brass shot in generous chambers with less case base support which will overly expand the case (especially near the case base) and/or show guppy like belly.

    "Normally expanded" case base will resize to fully chamber in the barrel with most brand resizing die but "overly expanded/guppy bellied" case won't fully resize in certain dies with larger radius cut in the carbide sizer/die mouth meant for easier alignment with the shell plate for brass to enter the die mouth.

    For me, Lee carbide sizing die will resize further down the case base with smaller OD than RCBS/Dillon 40S&W dies and I do not need to use push-through resizing with undersized "U" dies or FCD (Lee Bulge Buster kit) to fully chamber in even tighter Lone Wolf barrels. Many reloaders whose sizing die won't fully resize 40S&W brass use U dies/FCD (Bulge Buster) so the brass will fully chamber in their barrels. Some Dillon users have known to use Lee sizing die on their presses for this reason (use locking ring below the tool head due to shorter Lee die body).

    Key point to remember is if any brass resized with Lee carbide resizing die won't fully chamber in the tightest barrel I have, I cull the brass instead of push-through resizing with undersized/FCD as I consider overly expanded/guppy bellied brass to have experienced stretching of brass which thins the case wall and thus weaken the brass (once you thin the case wall, resizing won't make the case wall thicker ;)). Repeated push-through resizing with undersized/FCD of overly expanded/guppy bellied brass could result in case wall failure/KaBoom if thinning of case wall continues.


    - POWER TYPES (Shape/Burn rate/Coating)

    I usually recommend to reloaders if their loads overly expands/guppy bellies the brass to lower the powder charge. I also recommend to reloaders if they use mixed range brass with unknown reload history/condition of brass to not use near max/max load data and instead consider using lower powder charge to give them some pressure buffer.

    To better ensure against case wall failure/KB, I reserve verified once-fired brass for higher pressure 40S&W when using near max/max load data with slower burn rate than Unique/Universal/BE-86 powders. With mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass, I prefer to use lower pressure (mid-to-high range) loads using faster burn rate than Unique/Universal/BE-86. Powders like W231/HP-38 and BE-86 can produce accurate loads at mid-to-high range load data at lower pressures - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9645513#post9645513
     
    Last edited: May 31, 2015
  12. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - EVALUATING PISTOL LOADS

    Update of post #18 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9878749#post9878749

    Adding Berry's 124 gr RN/Titegroup to 9mm accuracy reference for 25 yards.


    Test pistols/barrels
    : Factory stock Glock 22 for 40S&W loads, KKM/Lone Wolf 40S&W/40-9 conversion barrel for 9mm/40S&W loads, factory stock Sig 1911 XO for 45ACP loads


    9mm 124 gr Berry's regular plated RN (solid base) with 3.8/4.0 gr Titegroup @ 1.160" (25 yards) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9382933#post9382933

    [​IMG]

    9mm 124 gr RMR HM RN with 5.2 gr of BE-86 @ 1.160" - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9655361#post9655361

    [​IMG]

    40S&W 180 gr RMR HM RNFP with 6.1 gr of Herco/BE-86 @ 1.155" - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9645513#post9645513

    [​IMG]

    [​IMG]

    45ACP MBC 12 BHN 200 gr SWC with 5.0 gr W231/HP-38 or 4.0 gr Red Dot/Promo @ 1.240" - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9415802#post9415802

    [​IMG]
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
  13. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - EVALUATING PISTOL/CARBINE/LEVER ACTION LOADS

    These NRA American Rifleman links have pistol/carbine/lever action articles and many have 25/50/100 yard accuracy and chrono data for reference.

    When conducting load development and range tests, the shot group/chrono data should help evaluate the accuracy of your loads for particular firearm you are using.

    Semi-auto pistol/carbine - http://www.americanrifleman.org/handguns/semi-auto/

    Revolvers - http://www.americanrifleman.org/handguns/revolver/

    Lever-action - http://www.americanrifleman.org/rifles/lever-action/
     
    Last edited: Jun 2, 2015
  14. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - BULLETS (design/weights/cannulas/gas checks/lube)

    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=781613

    Berry's MFG advertises 9mm bullets as sized .356" but they have measured around .3555" for me while Rainier advertises .355" sizing and bullets measured .355". Jay Phillips from Berry's MFG posted on THR while they try to change out the sizer often, depending on the wear, bullet sizing can range .3555"-.356" so they simply advertises .356" sizing.

    If you are using lower powder charges, the smaller sizing will leak more high pressure gas and may lead to more inconsistent powder burn/chamber pressures. Many reloaders claim greater accuracy with Berry's bullets and I think the larger sizing is the main reason. If you are using lower powder charge loads, only comparison test with both bullets will determine which bullet is more accurate.

    My experience with regular thickness plated bullets (.0035"-.008") is that accuracy starts to fall above mid range jacketed load data. I use full jacketed load data with Speer TMJ/Gold Dot/Berry's Hollow Base Thick Plated and Rocky Mountain Reloading Hardcore Match bullets with no loss of accuracy - www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=761471

    Unless Rainier Ballistics increased the copper plating from .004", not sure about the 1500 fps rating. MidwayUSA still shows .004" thickness with 1500 fps :confused::scrutiny: - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-9mm-355-diameter-115-grain-plated-round-nose


    Below is a listing of plating thickness and rated fps as best as I could find.

    Speer TMJ: .015" - http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/handgun/plinker/tmj.aspx

    Rocky Mountain Reloading HM: .012"-.014" (rated to 1500 fps) - http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/9mm-...73FC182726A6894DC5430243EC4092.m1plqscsfapp06

    Berry's Thick Plated (TP): .012" (rated to 1500 fps) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9589491#post9589491

    PowerBond: .010"-.011" (rated to 1300 fps) - http://www.bms.highbornoutdoors.com/index.php?_a=category&cat_id=14

    Berry's Regular: .0035"-.008" (rated to 1250 fps) - http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q12-c1-How_thick_is_the_jacket_on_your_bullets.aspx

    HSM: .005" (no fps rating) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/44...eter-180-grain-plated-hollow-point-box-of-500

    Rainier: .004" (rated to 1500 fps?) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-9mm-355-diameter-115-grain-plated-round-nose

    X-Treme: Can't find any reference for plating thickness but rates the regular plated bullets to 1200 fps and "Heavy Plate Concave Base" plated bullets to 1500 fps - http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

    Frontier CMJ: Can't find plating thickness or fps rating - http://www.frontierbullets.co.za/our-products/
     
  15. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - BULLETS (design/weights/cannulas/gas checks/lube)

    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9933302#post9933302

    [​IMG]

    If you look at the comparison picture above of MBC bullets, the 200 gr SWC bullet is essentially a 230 gr RN with some lead removed from the nose leaving the contact points for reliable feeding. Various Dardas/MasterCast/MBC/ZCast 200 gr SWC bullets have reliably fed/chambered in all the 1911s I have loaded for (Kimbers, SA, RIA, Citadel, Sig, etc.).

    I think 200 gr SWC is inherently more accurate than 230 gr RN due to having the same length of bullet base/bearing surface that engages the rifling but with better weight distribution (more weight towards bullet base) for greater rotational stability in flight.

    As to making power factor (PF), to make 165 PF, you need to push 230 gr bullet to 718 fps while you need to push 200 gr bullet to 825 fps which is very doable with many popular powders. One downside with 200 gr bullet is with some temperature sensitive powders like W231/HP-38, you would need to use more powder to make the same PF on colder days and many match shooters use 170 PF for their match loads for this reason.

    An example is while 5.5 gr of W231/HP-38 would make PF on warmer days, you may need to use 5.8 gr on colder winter days to make the same PF with 200 gr bullet. With heavier 230 gr bullet, this is less of an issue and you can always use less temperature sensitive powders like Titegroup for 200 gr bullet.

    And of course lighter 200 gr bullet will cost less than 230 gr bullet.
     
  16. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - SEATING PRIMERS / SETTING ANVIL TIP ON PRIMING COMPOUND (PRE-COMPRESSION)

    Continued from post #119 and #122

    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9935009#post9935009

    Depending on the primer pocket depth, .002" below flush may not be enough to set the anvil tip against the priming compound (pre-compression

    With some cases, primer pocket depth will vary and seating primers flush or slightly flush will only bottom out the anvil feet against the primer pocket but the anvil tip won't be in contact with the priming compound. If these loads don't fire, additional primer seating depth may be required to push the anvil tip against the priming compound (pre-compression) so the initial firing/striker pin hit will ignite the priming compound.

    As many suggest, seat primers FIRMLY until you feel the initial pressure (anvil feet contacting bottom of primer pocket) AND secondary pressure (anvil tip setting againt the priming compound/top of primer cup flattening).

    With most primers, I aim for .004" below flush but have tested them to .008" below flush and they have all gone bang (see comparison picture below) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9911556#

    If they have crimped primer pockets, be sure to remove the crimp or the primer cup will hang and only flatten so the anvil feet never touches the bottom of the primer pocket.

    .004" below flush on the left vs .008" on the right (notice flattening of primer cup with .008" below flush)

    [​IMG]
     
  17. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Ooops. Duplicate post.
     
    Last edited: Jun 14, 2015
  18. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - WORKING OAL/COL VS CHAMBERED OAL/COL

    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9935176#post9935176
    Working OAL/COL vs chambered OAL is a variable we simply need to factor in when using mixed range brass with unknown reload history and condition of brass (Now if only all the rounds experienced same amount of bullet setback when chambered ... :D). BTW, I experience very minimal or no bullet setback when using Berry's/RMR HM 124 gr RN at 1.135" and Glock/KKM/Lone Wolf barrels but the bullet setback maybe due to PPQ's barrel/feed ramp geometry.

    As you found out, working OAL does not matter if the chambered OAL decreases and final OAL is the bullet seating depth you should be concerned about especially if you are loading near max/max charge (With 3.6-4.0 gr start to max charge spread, 3.8/3.9 gr is near max). These are reasons why I do not recommend Titegroup to new reloaders as you have narrower margin of safety. What one may thought was a "safe/below published max pressure load" using high range load data at published OAL could easily become over max loads, especially if bullet seating depth decreases from significant bullet setback.
    Since Hodgdon lists 4.1 gr as max charge for Berry's HBRN-TP at 1.150" and 4.0 gr as max charge for Lead Cone Nose at 1.125", I would use the more conservative load data and work up your X-Treme plated bullets at 3.8 and 4.0 gr. As you can see, the very narrow start/max range is representative of significant chamber pressure increase from 0.4 gr powder charge increase. ;)

    I tested Berry's regular plated RN (solid base) with 3.8/4.0 gr Titegroup at longer 1.160" and while 3.8 gr worked well, 4.0 gr produced slightly greater accuracy. Since your OAL is limited to 1.130" due to PPQ's barrel and 1.125" is the chambered OAL, I think you would be OK.

    If you like, you can load some at 3.8/3.9/4.0 gr and see which produces best accuracy.

    [​IMG]
     
  19. kcofohio
    • Contributing Member

    kcofohio Contributing Member

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    bds, thanks for you and all the others that have put yourselves into this thread.

    I did notice that for your list of the different powders by burn rate grouping, Ramshot Silhouette was omitted. It falls into the HS-6, Autocomp section, from what I see.

    Again, thanks to all! :)
     
  20. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    Thanks kcofohio!

    - POWDER TYPES (Shape/Burn rate/Coating)


    Continued from post #74 - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9890280#post9890280


    Updated listing of "relative" powder burn rates for comparison:

    Faster burning pistol powders:

    E3 - Competition - Nitro 100 - N310 - Ba10

    No. 2 - Bullseye - Clays - WST - Red Dot/Promo - 700X - TiteGroup - Solo 1000 - Am. Select - International - Trail Boss - PB - N320 - Ba9 1/2

    No. 5 - W231/HP-38 - Zip - Green Dot - SR7625 - N32C - A1

    Slower burning pistol powders
    :

    Unique - Universal - BE-86 - Power Pistol - WSF - N330 - Ba9

    HS6 - AutoComp - CFE Pistol - Silhouette - Long Shot - Herco - 800X - True Blue - N340 - 3N37 - A0

    No. 7 - SR4756 - Blue Dot - N350 - Ba7 1/2

    No. 9 - Enforcer - W296/H110 - 2400 - Steel - SR4759 - H4227 - Lil'Gun - 3N38 - Ba6 1/2
     
  21. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - BARREL TWIST RATE

    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9939834#post9939834

    You may be getting greater accuracy with 147 gr bullet due to longer bullet base/bearing surface that engages the rifling for better flight characteristics. BTW, I have gotten good accuracy (~2" at 25 yards) with 124 gr RN bullets depending on the bullet/powder - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9924922#post9924922

    As to barrels, Glock uses fast 1:10 (actually 9.84) barrel twist rate which coupled with smooth rounded rifling and very gradual start of rifling allow the lead bullet to jump deeper into the barrel before chamber pressure starts to build that allows more high pressure gas to leak around the bullet aggravating leading and fouling build up. With fast barrel twist rate and higher load data, bullet may end up skidding down the barrel instead of rotating with the rifling which could result less rotational stability in flight and produce decreased accuracy on target.

    I use both KKM and Lone Wolf barrels in my Glocks and have gotten slightly better accuracy with slower twist rate of KKM when using the same load - www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=745656

    Lone Wolf and most other aftermarket barrels use slower 1:16 barrel twist rate. KKM uses even slower 1:20 twist rate which IMO is more compatible with lead bullets (especially with lower powder charge loads).

    I think this is the reason why Wilson Combat recently changed the barrel twist rate from 1:10 to 1:16.

    Comparison range test of 147 gr bullet with W231/HP-38, Bullseye, Titegroup, Red Dot/Promo - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=748940
     
  22. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - POWDER TEMPERATURE / REVERSE TEMPERATURE SENSITIVITY

    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9939874#post9939874

    I think at higher powder charges, the effects of reverse temperature sensitivity may not be obvious. OP is using lower charges (may be below published start charge even with shorter 1.110") which could be potentiating the reverse temperature sensitivity.

    You might want to use longest working OAL that will reliably feed/chamber from the magazine for less high pressure gas leakage.

    W231/HP-38 is temperature sensitive so warm summer load that will barely reliably cycle the slide may require higher powder charge on cold winter days.

    If you are looking for softer loads, I did a comparison test on this thread using W231/HP-38, Bullseye, Red Dot/Promo, Titegroup that produced very light recoil yet accuracy - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=748940
     
  23. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

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    - BULLETS (design/weights/cannulas/gas checks/lube)

    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9943211#post9943211

    While I can't speak to misinformation you received from other forums, on THR we do try to post reloading information that is safe and factual in line with published load data.

    40S&W was my match caliber and while I competed with jacketed bullets, I practiced with plated bullets (Berry's, HSM, PowerBond, Rainier, RMR, TMJ, X-Treme, etc.). I have shot several hundred thousands of jacketed/plated reloads in 155/165/180 gr bullet weights in various Glocks/M&Ps and have not experienced issues but seen several KaBooms.

    While I have used lead and up to mid-range jacketed load data for plated bullets, there are now published load data for plated bullets you can reference for your loads.

    One thing I have noticed with 40S&W and TCFP nose type plated bullets vs RN is that they are more prone to bullet set back when the bullet nose slams against the feed ramp. If the bullet base gets seated deeper from bullet setback, your chamber pressure can significantly increase even though you are using below max published lead load data to over max jacketed load data. What matters is not the finished OAL/COL but "chambered" length/bullet seating depth.

    To measure bullet setback, feed/chamber the dummy round (no powder/no primer) from the magazine and release the slide without riding it. If length decreases by more than several thousandths, you have neck tension issue that needs to be addressed (improve neck tension and/or reduce powder charge). If you are using mixed range brass, you should test sample of each headstamp.

    Also, Lyman #49 used larger groove diameter test barrel (.401") instead of more typical .400"and I find Lyman #49 load data significantly higher than load data from powder manufacturers. So slug your barrel to determine groove diameter and if your barrel's groove diameter is .401", use Lyman #49 data but if your barrel is .400", I would use more conservative load data from powder manufacturers - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9907655#post9907655

    As to the advice you received from gunshow to use jacketed load data for plated bullets, I consider .012" thickness of copper plating the threshold to use jacketed load data as thinner plated bullets lost accuracy when higher than mid-range jacketed load data was used. Below is listing of plated bullet information I compiled as best as I could over the years that you can reference - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9927091#post9927091

    Speer TMJ: .015" - http://www.speer-bullets.com/products/handgun/plinker/tmj.aspx

    Rocky Mountain Reloading HM
    : .012"-.014" (rated to 1500 fps) - http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/9mm-...73FC182726A6894DC5430243EC4092.m1plqscsfapp06

    Berry's Thick Plated (TP)
    : .012" (rated to 1500 fps) - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9589491#post9589491

    PowerBond: .010"-.011" (rated to 1300 fps) - http://www.bms.highbornoutdoors.com/index.php?_a=category&cat_id=14

    Berry's Regular: .0035"-.008"
    (rated to 1250 fps) - http://www.berrysmfg.com/faq-q12-c1-How_thick_is_the_jacket_on_your_bullets.aspx

    HSM: .005" (no fps rating) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/44...eter-180-grain-plated-hollow-point-box-of-500

    Rainier: .004" (rated to 1500 fps?) - http://www.midwayusa.com/product/10...-9mm-355-diameter-115-grain-plated-round-nose

    X-Treme
    : Can't find any reference for plating thickness but rates the regular plated bullets to 1200 fps and "Heavy Plate Concave Base" plated bullets to 1500 fps - http://www.xtremebullets.com/Bullet-Load-Info-s/1952.htm

    Frontier CMJ: Can't find plating thickness or fps rating - http://www.frontierbullets.co.za/our-products/
     
  24. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    23,376
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    - PLATED BULLET NECK TENSION / BULLET SETBACK

    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9943929#post9943929

    KaBoom occurs when:

    - Double powder charge (reloading practice?)
    - Overcharge of powder (mixed up load data?)
    - Overpressure from bullet setback during feeding/chambering (poor neck tension?)
    - Case wall failure from weakened/thinned case (brass reloaded multiple times and shot, perhaps with hot loads, in less case base supported chambers)
    - Case wall failure from defective/damaged brass

    Since OP experienced KBs with more than one pistol, I am more inclined to suspect the reloads (finished rounds) than bullets (projectiles).

    Yes, we NEED more information. Until then, root cause analysis suspicion would be unsafe reloads.

    Due to these reasons, I inspect KB prone 40S&W cases more carefully and check for neck tension/bullet setback even more carefully. With mixed range brass with unknown reload history/condition of brass, I prefer to use mid-to-high range load data and reserve verified once-fired brass for near max/max loads.

    http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9944381#post9944381

    If you used the same brass/powder/charge/OAL as FMJ loads, then it is possible Frontier plated bullet may have been a factor. Frontier makes two types of plated bullets, regular thickness CMJ and match bullets with thicker plating. If you used CMJ, I would suggest lead load data for regular thickness plated bullets and not jacketed load data.

    Some plated bullets have softer lead/alloy core that may not hold sufficient neck tension when crimped. It is possible that amount of crimp you used for FMJ decreased neck tension (from brass spring back) and caused bullet setback which would result in significant chamber pressure increase (depending on the amount of bullet setback, possibly 50-80%+ increase), especially if the deeper seated bullet caused a compressed charge.

    What amount of taper crimp did you use on your loads?

    I would test some samples of different headstamp cases for neck tension/bullet setback by feeding/chambering dummy rounds (no powder/no primer) from magazine and releasing the slide without riding it. If you can measure significant bullet setback of more than several thousandths, you may have identified your root cause for case failure.

    I have experienced different amounts of bullet setback with plated bullets and prefer certain brands over others (Berry's/HSM/PowerBond/Rainier/RMR/Speer TMJ-GD/X-Treme).

    Berry's plated bullets are typically sized slightly larger than jacketed diameters and produce greater neck tension where most of my rounds do not experience any bullet setback or minimal setback of less than few thousandths (Note .401" sizing for 40S&W bullets instead of .400") - http://www.berrysmfg.com/products-c130-1000500_Count_Boxes.aspx

    With RMR HM plated bullets with harder 11-12 BHN lead alloy core, I seem to obtain even greater neck tension and experience even less bullet setback or no setback for my various 9/40/45 loads - http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/40-1...FP-Plated-1000-Ct-40-180-RMR-HC-RNFP-1000.htm
     
  25. LiveLife

    LiveLife Member

    Joined:
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    Messages:
    23,376
    Location:
    Northwest Coast
    - MATCH LOAD - MAJOR POWER FACTOR
    - POWER TYPES (Shape/Burn rate/Coating)
    - BULLETS (design/weights/cannulas/gas checks/lube)


    Repost from another thread - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9946542#post9946542

    Did you measure 995 fps using a chrono? Likely, you won't make major PF with 165 gr bullet as 180 gr is better suited for major PF and N320 (see N320 PF chart below). You will get different muzzle velocities out of same barrel when using different bullet types. Vihtavuori used PMC TC-FMJ (which is jacketed bullet) compared to your plated bullet with 5.5" barrel (if your barrel is shorter, your velocities will be even less)
    Also, temperature variation can affect muzzle velocity so many match shooters load few PF higher to ensure their loads will chrono to meet power factor. Your load on hot summer day may not chrono the same on cold winter day so repeat your chrono testing and you may need to adjust your powder charge.

    Also, depending on the bullet nose type, you may need to load longer for greater accuracy. On this thread, I loaded TCFP bullets to longer than SAMMI max at 1.143" to decrease gas leakage - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=93628

    Here are some major PF loads with N320 you can reference (note longer OAL/COL and barrel length) - http://www.k8nd.com/documents/hl40sw.pdf

    Bullet Type / Powder charge / OAL-COL / FPS / PF / Pisto-Barrel lengthl
    W231N320WST_zps3efe7e31.jpg
    W231WSFAC_zpsd44f9f11.jpg

    N320 is cut extruded powder like most rifle powders (see above comparison pictures) and Pro Auto Disk (PAD) meters best with small granule powders like Bullseye/Titegroup/WST/W231/HP-38/Universal/PowerPistol/BE-86/WSF/AutoComp/CFE-Pistol/etc. - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9890280#post9890280

    I usually recommend Pro Auto Disk "break in" with coated powders like W231/HP-38/Titegroup/WSF/AutoComp/etc. as black coating will coat the sliding surfaces of PAD for more consistent powder drops of less than .1 gr. If using non-coated powders, you can coat the sliding surfaces (especially elastomer wiper surface) with fine graphite powder or finely shaved No 2 pencil lead on paper and rub the wiper until a shiny black surface forms for smooth PAD operation and consistent metering.
    You can facilitate faster settling of powder in the hopper by lightly tapping the hopper with finger tip about 10 times then measuring powder drops until consistent. For match grade loads, I prefer to use powders with PAD that will meter with less than .1 gr variance. While USPSA action pistol match loads do not require accuracy of bullseye match loads, I use the following guidelines for match load vs practice/plinking loads - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9892617#post9892617
    While I used Montana Gold 165/180 gr FMJ/JHP as my designated match bullets with less than 1 gr variance bullet-to-bullet, I used plated bullets for practice which varied by several grains bullet-to-bullet.

    If you want all of your double taps to land in "A" zones without flyers, you may want to consider changing bullets. I could never match the accuracy of my MG jacketed loads with regular plated bullets. Plated bullets with rounded solid base tend to leak more high pressure gas which would result in greater chamber pressure variations that would decrease accuracy and increase shot group size. Loading bullets longer than SAAMI max of 1.135" will decrease bullet jump to start of rifling and 1.140"-1.143" increased accuracy for me with 165/180 gr TCFP bullets - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=93628

    I had good results with Berry's hollow base plated bullets but you may want to conduct comparison accuracy test with different bullets to see which bullet produces most accurate shot groups with your match pistol. While I would suggest Montana Gold 165/180 gr JHP bullets, if cost is a factor, consider trying RMR HM thick plated bullets as harder 11-12 BHN lead alloy core seem to help produce greater neck tension than other plated bullets with softer lead/alloy cores (with less bullet set back) and thus far has produced smallest shot groups compared to other bullets I have shot with BE-86 (and you get 5% THR discount with thehighroad5 code) - http://www.shop.rmrbullets.com/40-1...7394E3B2F532EFF5CE2784C2C73991.m1plqscsfapp06

    Although many match shooters consider N320 "the" powder for 9mm, for 40S&W many match shooters prefer other powders like Titegroup/W231/HP-38/PowerPistol/WSF/AutoComp etc. With 165 gr bullet, you will make major PF more easily with powders like WSF/AutoComp as you can make PF even with lower start charges.

    I have tested various powders for 40S&W match loads but ended up using WSF for major PF loads and W231/HP-38 for almost major PF/minor PF loads.

    During the powder shortage, I tested Herco for 40S&W and found it to be very clean burning (can you say shiny inside of brass case?) and more accurate than other powders -

    Lately, I tested BE-86 with RMR HM thick plated bullets loaded longer at 1.142"-1.143" and this load produced sub 2" shot groups at 25 yards out of factory stock Glock 22. I plan to resume USPSA match shooting later this year and will be using BE-86/RMR HM load as my match load - http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?p=9924922#post9924922
     
    Last edited: Jun 26, 2015
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