THR MythBusters: No Touch .50 Kill...

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I'll try a little mythbusting...

Does anybody here have access to a .50 BMG for a little experiment???
Try near missing a watermelon or ballistic gelatin and get back to us ASAP

Myths, like riddles, can be figured out if you scrutinize them hard enough.

The Geneva convention and/or any accords only apply when both parties agree to them during/after a state of war has existed.
This myth about certain weapons being excluded from certain use is often from the Vietnam conflict. NOT a war, as most people think. It is officially termed a Police Action. Let us all hope those that someday police us don't use bombs the size of Honda Civic's dropped from cargo planes and other goodies like landmines and Napalm to resolve the conflict.

Many CO's throughout the years have frowned on their grunts using "odd-ball" equipment or tactics that might bring negative responses from the higher ranking commanders... i.e. Shotguns for their inherent "gory wounding effect", crossbows, silenced pistols, foriegn firearms, abnormal tactics, etc. They also frowned upon collecting ears and scalps, but it really happened... Or the stuff like my buddy who was a doorgunner in 'Nam told me stories of how a body that is shot by a large machine gun will lift off the ground. If hit succesfully and carefully, the body will continue to levitate off the ground untill it literally disintegrates.
A less macabre example of this reality can be had with any rapid fire .22 and a tin can... My friend did it to a cantelope (sp?) got off 6 with a 10/22 before there wasn't anything left to shoot at...

The logistics/command and control structure is augmented by uniformity.
During and following WW2 it was noted that a 10 man squad often carried several different types and calibers of firearms. Ammo supply was bad at best, but even more so when trying to outfit up to 15 firearms of different designations and up to 6 different calibers.
Throughout the years, attempts were made to reduce these numbers to a single type and caliber of sidearm (pistol) and a standard small arm (battle rifle) with one or more members outfitted with a Squad Automatic Weapon aptly knicknamed the "buzzsaw" and others with an anti-armor weapon.
This allows the squad to be light, mobile, and still maintain a high level of lethality across the spectrum of battlefield engagements.

Now, even if you were under direct orders not to engage the single enemy soldier with any of the "abnormal" weapons, and said enemy's infantry suddenly storms your position, what would you do?

A. I'm not using my Ma Duece to grease these guys because of the peace accords or the moral judgement of what constitutes civilized warfare.

B. While Ma Duece cools down, I'll use whatever else is available to kill the enemy before he kills me.

I've heard many a "knowitall" say that shotguns were never used in Vietnam and many a vet say he used one for effectively clearing hooches...
You'll also hear people say that it was illegal for an American soldier to carry anything but an M-16 as his main battle rifle. Yet I know at least one vet who preferred an AK-47 when on point and more than a few early guys who didn't trust the M-16 and opted for the M-14 of Korea fame...
Many a vet also has said to me:
"What's the worst they could do? Send me to the 'Nam, again?"
Meaning: "Next to this, how bad could anything else ever be?"
Besides, they can really only punish you if you live...

As for the near miss theory...
I have heard stories about this happening from larger (20mm and up) projectiles passing very, very close to people and mildly injuring them by the shockwave that was created... Mild concussions, hearing damage, etc.
If a 20mm won't jelly your brains with a near miss, why would a .50???

The squirrel on a branch thing...
Yup, did that. Also hit one with #6 20 guage pellets and didn't see him again until later that year through a scope. He was missing part of his tail and one ear and had a nasty scar on his belly. But he sure wasn't dead.
I once missed a deer's throat with a shotgun slug by a few centimeters. Blew the tree apart right next to his head. He sprayed the ground with brown pellets as he ran off and I never saw him again...
A friend of mine told me that he missed a grouse by mere inches and the bird died of a heart attack. Does that count?

I guess there is no real answer...
There are many cases of soldiers being told not to waste "hard" ammo on "soft" targets for various reasons and far too many uninformed and ignorant people who spew "genuine war stories"

The real issue is whether or not the situation is really desparate enough and the person invloved is smart enough to employ any and all available weapons to gain a tactical advantage...

No military manual of arms that I know of will tell a soldier to bonk a mortar round on the fuse and toss it at a single enemy soldier, but it has been done...

My own humble opinion?
Don't ever intentionally miss your target.
When in combat, fight like your life depended on it. Because it does...

Jimbo
 
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"with water-cooled .50s. Yeah, WATER COOLED!"

Water cooled .50 BMGs was the standard last ditch anti-aircraft defense for Navy ships through a large part of WW II.

They were also used by emplaced ground troops.

They were increasingly replaced by the 20mm Oerlikon guns, though.

I think water cooled .50s were used up through the Vietnam War, on river patrol craft.
 
This isn't concerning a .50 but some what on the same thought.

When I was a kid growing up on the farm I did a LOT of shooting.

I once shot a rabbit with a .22 cal crossman pellet gun and upon examination found that I only hit his ears and had made a nice hole through them both with out touching his head or neck. I posted him to cure my curiosity and did not find any other wound.

My thoughts at the time were that the blood vessels transfered the little bit of energy from the hit on his ears directly to its brain as they are obviously very close togather. I don't think that I actually killed it with the shot but just stunded it and then picked it up and finished it off before it could recover.

I have seen rabbits litterly shake with fear. ( brother had a snake and would feed it rabbits.) And this may be a contributing factor with a hit to the ears--- something like a heart attack.

Just an observation.
Vern
 
Hate to reserect an old thread but.....

I work with two former marines who last night were trying to tell me that if a .50 bmg round passed close enough to you but without hitting you it would rip off body parts. I laughed and called BS of course but they were adiment and claimed to have seen video. After I told a few others who all laughed at them, including other marines, they still wouldn't give in. So what is this like an urban legend in the military or have the antis spewed so much BS even people with some gun knowledge believe such ridiculous things? Any how I tried to explain to them it was physically impossible and one of them said "2 ft. was the limit of how close it could miss you by and still be safe." At the point I gave up and reffered them here. Anyone else have anything to add on this? I sure would like to have more proof to give them because I have a feeling they still aren't going to give it up.
 
My grandfather told me that when he was in a hospital during WWII there was a guy there who was running along a ridge and by some freak chance had a cannon shell pass betwen his legs. He did have massive bruising to his testicles, a lot of swelling, but nothng was ripped off.

To my thinking, if something that size won't rip off body parts, neither would a .50.
 
Oh man, such ignorance...

Before my unit deployed for Operation Iraqi Freedom (the first one, you know, the invasion) the Battalion assembled at the post theatre for a DOD legal office briefing, during which the DOD man specificly stated that A) nothing in the Hague Conventions prohibited the use of .50 cal weapons on enemy personel, B) The Hague Conventions only apply to signatory nations' UNIFORMED military personel, and finally that C) US military personel always have the right to defend themselves and other personel with deadly force, using whatever weapon(s) are available; including fists, rocks, pointy sticks, knives, shotguns, cannon, etc.

Also, the M2 Heavy Barrel, Flex Mount, Browning Heavy Machine Gun, .50 cal (and other M2 variants) are air cooled, belt feed, SELECT FIRE, automatic weapons. Rotating an arm on the rear of the weapon will depress the bolt latch release, locking the weapon into automatic fire during which one only has to hold down the firing pin release (aka trigger) to cause the weapon to cycle. Rotating the arm the opposite direction unlocks the bolt latch release, necessitating the operator to press both the bolt latch and firing pin releases to cause the weapon to cycle; semi-automatic fire.

In regards to the overpressure casualty myth, I too heard this in the service, however, when one looks at wood, steel, and paper targets engaged with .50 cal weapons, one will find half inch holes and nothing else.

Any questions!?
 
I recall hearing that ball ammo (fmj) is a-ok to use on people, but not the explosive ammo.
 
I wonder if these eight .50's ever got used against "soft targets"?

p47-21.jpg
 
I had someone send me that video footage about two weeks ago.
The sender had titled it "Varmint Hunting"

Pretty awesome example of what a .50 can do. :what:


Like the old AT&T Long Distance commercial used to say:
"Reach out and touch someone"...........
 
I had someone send me that video footage about two weeks ago.
The sender had titled it "Varmint Hunting"

Pretty awesome example of what a .50 can do.
Click to expand...

Yeah I think that was already been debunked in another thread.

First it was said to be a .50 cal used by snipers in the Afgahn montains on Al Queda.

I think everyone figured out pretty quick that the video was varmints being shot and not even a .50 cal but a smaller caliber with the audio edited or slowed down to make the report sound much louder than it really was.

See www.dogbegone.com

Same kind of descruction on the varmits using, .223 and 22-250
 
There have been several videos floating around the net the last couple of years out of Iraq ... showing Iraqi soldiers (and later insurgents) being shot with 20mm and 30mm full auto cannons from gunships.

20mm is much bigger then .50BMG (which is only 12.7mm)

If indeed that was illegal then the leftist media would be calling for the heads of the gunner, his CO, Rumsfeld & Bush on pikes over it.


as for the shock-wave "jellifying brains" just by passing by, that's got to be hokum.

I've seen paper targets shot with .50BMG and the holes in the paper are neatly cut 1/2" round holes ... the amount of force in this "brain jellifying shock-wave" would be so much that you'd see giant ragged holes torn in the paper.
 
DOD legal office briefing, during which the DOD man specificly stated that A) nothing in the Hague Conventions prohibited the use of .50 cal weapons on enemy personel, B) The Hague Conventions only apply to signatory nations' UNIFORMED military personel, and finally that C) US military personel always have the right to defend themselves and other personel with deadly force, using whatever weapon(s) are available; including fists, rocks, pointy sticks, knives, shotguns, cannon, etc.
Click to expand...

I want to send whoever was responsible for that briefing a big fruit basket. I'm serious. I want to give them an award for finally putting to rest all these absurd bunkhouse rumors about the big fifty. GOOD WORK AND MAJOR KUDOS!
 
I have personally shot 20mm HEI (larger than .50 cal...) into personnel in Iraq. There is no law or agreement against it.
 
Since the concept of "No .50 cal against people-type targets." seems to have been entirely trounced in this discussion so far, I have a secondary question to ask:

What of the Hague Accord/Geneva Convention/Other International Agreement (I dunno which) that prohibits the use of antiaircraft weapons against infantry?

A) Why would _anyone_ make a rule that ridiculous? Right, like if an anti-armor platoon of enemy soldiers comes rolling over a hill while I'm hanging out inside a ZSU-23-4, I'm _not_ gonna tear them a great many new ones with these handy-dandy 23mm cannons (just using the ZSU for an example, it's the only antiaircraft vehicle I could think of that was entirely armed with cannons).

B) What's the root/rationale of that rule?

~Slam_Fire
 
But i can say that i was given direct orders not to fire at persons, insted i was ordered to aim at the gear on their body. This order came directly from the CO of my regament.
Click to expand...

okay, the rumor has floated around for a while that it is illegal to use the .50 on troops but not equipment. apparently this rumor has percolated pretty far up the chain of command without verification. this rumor is similar to the one about how you're not supposed to shoot paratroops on the way down, but you can shoot at equipment; i.e. helmet, lbe, parachute harness... this one is also false. one should not shoot personnel escaping from a stricken aircraft unless they are actively hostile. it is assumed that they are out of the fight. paratroopers, on the other hand are parachuting in for the express purpose of killing you.

one should remember that although the us is not a signatory to the second hague convention, (the one that causes all the fuss about jhp's, .50's, at4's, etc. being used on soft targets) we do attempt to follow it. the .50 is not specifically prohibited by the hague convention or any army regulation for use on soft targets, though i can't speak for other branches. it has been mentioned that there have been regional prohibitions of its use on soft targets for good reason. .50 ammo is expensive, heavy and bulky. if it is possible to destroy the enemy by other means, on should do so and save the .50 for what it's best at - destroying lightly armored targets and engaging at extreme range. obviously, if all a soldier has is an m2, that's what he'll kill the enemy with. likewise for an at4 or a tow missile for that matter.

as far as the myth in the original post, i'm sure we all know that's hogwash and with any luck adam and jimmie will do a show on it.
 
I got an e-mail video from a friend who has an aquaintance who's son is in A'stan. The claim is that the film is of 4 kills by US sniper using .50 cal of some sort. Film does not say as there is no audio except the report of the weapon and the echo off the mountains and the exclamation of the one filming the video after the 4th kill.

Friend says his aquaintance was told it was a .50 cal. rifle.
The camera has a zoom feature so it appears the shots are being made from quite a distance. I must say the results of these shots are impressive with respect to the damage being done to the ever deserving recipient. We're talking multiple pieces of goblin being moved around.

I'm not going to attach the video, as it is very graphic!!
 
.50 Bmg

Apparantly nobody shoots fifties here!
The .50 BMG ROOFUS cartridge was designed to equal the destruction of the 20mm cannon cartridge.
the ROOFUS contains a HE (high explosive!) charge in the bullet and somewhere online is a video of a US sniper using the ROOFUS to disassemble a badguy.
 
I heard this myth in bootcamp of all places, but it went like this...

The .50 cal is illegal to shoot at personnell, you can only shoot at military equipment with it. So aim at their uniforms, canteens, rifles, rucksacks and other military "equipment" they are wearing. We were also told that hitting a canteen with a .50 cal turns it into a small grenade.

Yeah, whatever.
 
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