THR Remington 1858 Club

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" I thought I would join up with my brand new Pietta Remington Model 1858 in .36 caliber!"
Any perticular reason you choose the .36 over the .44?
My .44 should be in next week or early week after next. They've jumped $69 at Cabela's in a week.
 
Lburgau, you've read the BP Essentials thread sticky at the top of the listings on this Blackpowder forum? That's a great place to start.

In addition to that on You Tube do a search on "loading remington 1858", then try "loading remington army". Those two searches should find a lot of videos of folks loading the 1858 style revolvers. And if by some chance you find a nice open top then just sub in "colt 1851" or "colt 1860" for the Remington references. You'll find a whole bunch of videos showing loading with the built in ram, with after market cylinder presses and different suggestions for ball size, over or under ball lubricating and all your other questions.

For my part I found a video on You Tube where the guy used a single drop of cooking oil set into the joint between the chamber walls and the balls. That seemed a WHOLE LOT less fuss and mess than smearing in gobs of grease. I've used that method now for 8 years and it's proven to work well as lubricating the balls and keeping the fouling nice and sloppy. My oil of choice is Canola. I was worried about possible food acids in cooking oils but when I found a reference to rape seed oil (Canola) being used in the steam engine valving on merchant ships in WW II and it being a superior oil in so many ways to other choices I felt a lot easier about using it on my guns.

Note that Canola WILL gum up in time so I don't use it for long term lubrication or rust protection. For that it's Ballistol all the way as it is one of the few gun oils that is friendly with BP fouling. The Essentials thread makes note of this. But if I'm at a two day shoot? In that case at the end of the first day when I do my "short cleaning" I have no qualms about slathering the guns down with a light coating of Canola to keep them cozy for the next day.

A drop of Canola on the front of the cylinder to keep the cylinder spinning free on the base pin each time I reload also cuts any risk of the fouling making the cylinder hard to turn. The Canola mixes freely with any powder fouling to form a black mess but which forms a fine lubricant to keep things from becoming stiff to turn.
 
Project 45 colt conversion and grip upgrade just about complete.
This thread needs pictures!
1858 Pietta

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Why is the other Remington Club thread locked?:confused:

That older thread had 53 pages of Remmys.
I wish it never got locked too. But this will have to do.

Bullseye

Like the look of the conversion but curious as to what those grips are made out of?

Long story on the grips here. They are fake jigged buffalo, some kind of black resin grips from N C Ordinance and I do not recommend dealing with them. They needed a lot of fitting, sanding and polishing.
I have done 4 or 5 sets of grips of all kinds now from all sorts of makers, but these were way off.
They turned out OK. I still need to tweak them a little.
I was almost ready to send them back but to save myself more hassle I decided to take a crack at fitting these.
Sure, I could have sent them back on my dime and lost the cost of shipping twice.
There are others out there to take a chance on, you would probably be better off shopping around.
I haven't seen an image of another 1858 with these grips anywhere. I do like that mine is a little different than the next guys.
 
Bullseye

Thanks for the heads up. I was thinking about getting a pair of their grips for my Beretta Stampede but have come across a few similar reports that their grips were poorly made and took quite a bit of effort to get them to fit right.
 
Crawdad1

That's what I was wondering when I wanted to add my post about my new Remington Model 1858. Since I couldn't access the old thread I started a new one. Maybe the old thread was dormant for so long (I think it was nearly a year since anyone had posted on it) that it was closed.
 
Thread is back and open.
Thank you staff for that !

And I'll add my updated 1858 Pietta with the Taylor's conversion cylinder and newly fitted resin jigged grips.

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Likewise I will celebrate the successful merger with a new photo of my Pietta Remington .36 cal. Model 1858! Thanks Bullseye and Mal H!

 
Another 1858 guy here, the design is timeless and pure genius. Sure beats Colt cap jams and a wedge on the side.
 
Yap! Well, that wedge on the side keeps a stronger (and earlier) design together! I just wish the Remie would run as long as my open tops do without binding.
Some here are fans of both and members of several clubs.
I see you're new.
Welcome.

Mike
 
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OK, I'll play.


Here is my EuroArms Remmie that I bought brand spanky new in 1975. A few years ago I had a R&D 45 Colt cylinder fitted to it and that is the only way I have fired it since, but of course the cartridges are loaded with Black Powder. Sorry guys, I just don't have the patience for C&B anymore. Back in the 1970s these guns had much shorter front sights and this one always shot high. Before I invested the money in the cylinder, I had a local smith install a taller Uberti front sight to bring the POI down closer to the POA. Worked out fine.

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Here is a close up with the conversion cylinder.

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I also have a Stainless Uberti Remmie, also with conversion cylinder, that I bought used about the same time as I had the conversion cylinder installed in the old EuroArms Remmie. I need to take some photos of it.
 
Mike - I've been using CorrosionX on the pin for the 1858 NMA and haven't had any problems with binding.
 
I've been using Ballistol on mine without issues, though I reapply it periodically (not because I need to but just because - maybe I should see how long it runs).
 
Well, yall start counting after you get to 100 rounds with no cleaning or pulling the pin lol!
I've got a fix for the Remies though. I know why they bind and how to fix it. I'm sure DJ's explanation and the awesome photos he'll put with it will be excellent!! He does a great job!!

Mike
 
I've been using Ballistol on mine without issues, though I reapply it periodically (not because I need to but just because - maybe I should see how long it runs).

You might want to try some CorrosionX, it's not only an incredible lubricant, but also acts as a cleaner. I started using it on my high carbon steel tools and spraying it on electrical contacts to prevent rust on the outside AC/Heater unit. When you coat the inside of the trigger assembly and pin on the NMA, it stays on and remains slippery. Incredible stuff.
 
OK, here's the deal with why the 1858 Remington tends to bind up quickly with Black Powder fouling.

The main cause of a cylinder binding with BP fouling is that fouling blasted out of the barrel cylinder gap gets deposited directly onto the cylinder pin. Forget everything you've heard about barrel/cylinder gap dimensions, that is not as critical as the fact that fouling is being blasted at high pressure onto the pin itself. BP fouling is dry and gritty. As the cylinder rotates the fouling works its way further onto the pin and as more fouling builds up between the pin and the cylinder, the binding gets worse.

The cylinder pin of the 1858 design is very narrow, only about 1/4" in diameter. The cylinder arbor of a Colt type design is larger in diameter. In addition, when you pop the cylinder out of a Colt you will notice there is a helical groove cut around the cylinder pin. The groove is there to provide clearance for fouling to be deposited in without filling up the tiny space between the cylinder and the arbor. So the larger diameter of the Colt arbor spreads out the fouling over a larger area, while the helical groove provides clearance. That is why Remmies tend to bind up more quickly than a Colt. You can see I chucked up the pin of my old EuroArms Remmie in my drill press and cut some crude clearance grooves in it quite a while ago, in an attempt to simulate the clearance grooves of a Colt. Not very successful. Perhaps if I had a lathe and cut grooves more precisely and more closely spaced it would have worked better. But I am not a skilled lathe operator, and with that narrow pin I was concerned with cutting too deep. When I am shooting my Remmie I load up the cylinder pin with bore butter, but even so, I take the cylinder out and wipe off the face of it with a damp rag after every cylinderfull, or it will start to bind. Seeing as the cylinder is so easy to pop out of a Remmie, this is not much of a chore.

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But the story of BP fouling binding cylinders does not end there. You will notice both the Colt design and the Remington design have flat faced cylinders. With these guns, the cylinder butts right up against the frame, with just a little bit of clearance designed in. The barrel of the Remington is threaded into the frame flush with the cylinder opening, the barrel cylinder gap is determined by the amount of clearance between the cylinder and the frame.

But the important fact is that with both designs there is a clear, open path for fouling that is blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap to be deposited directly onto the exposed cylinder pin or arbor.

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Now let's take a look at how Smith and Wesson dealt with the problem of Black Powder binding up cylinders. S&W never built any percussion revolvers, they didn't have to. S&W controlled the Rollin White patent for cylinders bored straight through to accept cartridges. Starting in 1857 S&W started building their Tip Up model revolvers. Here is a photo showing the three different sizes they made, from smallest to largest the 22 Rimfire #1, the 32 Rimfire #1 1/2, and the 32 Rimfire #2.

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The Tip Ups were very simple revolvers. To load them you released a latch and tipped the barrel up, hence the name. You pulled the cylinder straight out and poked out the empties with the rod that was pressed in under the barrel. The little nub on the front of the cylinder fitted into a recess under the barrel for the for the cylinder to rotate around. Then you popped the cylinder back in place, swung down the barrel and latched it and you were ready to go. Notice too that with the Tip Ups the cylinder bore directly against the frame.

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The White patent was in force until 1869, and all that time Colt was chafing at the bit because they could not build a cartridge revolver until the White patent expired. The Thuer conversion was an attempt to get around the White patent, but it was not a very successful design. To make matters worse, Rollin White was a former Colt employee and he had offered to sell his patent to Sam Colt who in what was probably the worst business decision of his life, had passed.

But I digress.

Smith and Wesson assumed that Colt and everybody else had been working on their own cartridge designs and would be ready to pounce once the White patent expired. It didn't work out that way, but that's another story. But S&W had been diligently working on a radically new revolver design so they would have a better mouse trap than everybody else when the White patent expired. The new design was the first of the Top Break designs. It was a big, 44 caliber revolver that automatically ejected the empties when you broke the gun open, you did not have to poke out the empties one at a time like you would eventually have to do with the 1873 Colt. The new S&W design was eventually known as the American model. I don't own an American, but this New Model Number Three illustrates S&W's thinking on what to do about Black Powder fouling binding up Cylinders. Notice the helical groove cut into the cylinder arbor directly under the end of the barrel. Look familiar? It is there for clearance exactly like the helical groove on the Colt C&B arbor.

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In addition to the clearance groove, S&W pressed a bushing onto the front face of the cylinder, so it was no longer flat faced.

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When the gun is closed up, the bushing rides outside the cylinder arbor. Notice how the cylinder does not bear directly against the frame, the bushing does. The bushing provides horizontal separation between the barrel/cylinder gap and the opening at the front of the cylinder bushing. What this means is the arbor is shielded from nasty fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap. I can shoot this revolver with Black Powder cartridges all day long and it never binds up. Clever guys at S&W.

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Colt messed around with cartridge conversions for a few years, but when the Single Action Army came out in 1873 they had done their homework. They added a bushing to the front of the cylinder. Colt bushings are a slip fit and are removable. The cylinder and bushing on the left are from an Uberti Cattleman, the cylinder and bushing on the right are from a 2nd Gen Colt.

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Here, the bushings have been slipped into place. Oh my goodness, what's that in the middle? A Ruger Vaquero cylinder with a great big bushing cut directly onto the front of the cylinder.

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With the Colt, the bushing does the same job as the bushing on the S&W cylinder. It provides horizontal separation between the barrel/cylinder gap and the front of the cylinder bushing, shielding the cylinder pin from almost all of the fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap.

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The Vaquero illustrates the separation a little bit better. I can shoot a Colt or a Vaquero all day long with Black Powder cartridges and the cylinders never bind up.

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Remington was not far behind, when they introduced their Model 1875 Army cartridge revolver, it too had a bushing on the front of the cylinder.

So in a nutshell, that's why the 1858 Remington tends to bind up so quickly with BP fouling, and how revolver manufactures came up with solutions to the problem. I don't know what this new magic lube is that folks are raving about, but I'm sure it works well. But the best solution to getting the 1858 to shoot without binding is to find a gunsmith who can fabricate a bushing to press onto the front of the cylinder and make a clearance cut into the frame to accommodate the bushing. A friend of mine used to do that and it worked great, but unfortunately he is retired now.

Incidentally, you may have read that the modern reproductions of the S&W Top Breaks made by Uberti do not perform will with Black Powder but tend to bind up easily. This is true. The reason is that Uberti 'stretched' the length of their cylinders to accept longer cartridges such as 45 Colt, but did not stretch the frames a corresponding amount. Instead they skimped on the bushing at the front of the cylinders to fit the longer cylinders into a frame the same basic size as the originals. There is still a bushing there, but it is too short to allow enough horizontal separation between the barrel/cylinder gap and the front of the bushing to effectively shield the arbor from fouling blasted out of the barrel/cylinder gap.
 
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See! Told ya!! Nice explanation complete with pics!. Good job DJ!

One more thing about the open tops. The arbors on the 1st gens (originals) had a more pronounced relief cut at the face of the cylinder. This gave the fouling the ability to somewhat bypass the "entry area" for fouling to encroach between the arbor/cylinder. Uberti's have a slight relief cut there but not hardly enough to do any good. Likewise, the Piettas don't even have an "honorable mention" of a cut there. Just one more area where our open top reproductions seem to be lacking from the originals. It would be nice to have a "true to design" model to compare to the easier to replicate Remie. But for now, we have what we have which is better than nothing.

Mike
 
Just took apart a Pietta and a C.O.M. .44 brasser "1851" and found that the arbor on both was thinner on the part that extends between the barrel assembly and the cylinder than the sections that are covered by those parts when firing. Not a lot thinner, but noticeably so by touch and of course can not find my calipers at the moment.
I took them apart wondering it perhaps a shallow groove right where the arbor comes out of the cylinder at might act like the liner on the colt SAA. Of course if the groove extended back into the cylinder area at all it might worsen the situation my acting sort of like a funnel.
Just thinking.
-kBob
 
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