THR Remington 1858 Club

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Hello folks - apologies I have been absent - work has been getting the better of me recently! Welcome to all those who have joined since my last visit and thanks to Geneseo1911 for updating on my behalf!

#1 Shoot The Moon, #2 TomADC, #3 fogg64, #4 mykeal, #5 romel, #6 kwhi43, #7rdstrain49, #8 junkman_01, #9 AaronE, #10 jtscuba02, #11 Prairie Dawg, #12 Nalioth, #13 Mizar, #14 BHP FAN, #15 napp, #16 jaymo, #17 theotherwaldo, #18 berkley, #19 Oyeboten, #20 messerist, #21 missuramoss, #22 ojh, #23 txgunsuscg, #24 WALKERs210, #25 BConklin, #26 ClemBert, #27 Hellgate, #28 dtvburns, #29 Loosenock, #30 Ultravox, #31 Otony, #32 45-70 Ranger, #33 Tinpan, 58 #34 1858 Remington, #35 Smokepole14, #36 Howdy Doody, #37Craiso, #38 Phantom Captain, #39 The Black Spot, #40 Martysport, #41 Captain Redbeard, #42 Shanghai McCoy, #43 GlennC22ndMVI (pending photo!), #44 BlackPowderSmoke, #45 Pressure Cleaner, #46 Dudemeister, #47 RhinoDave, #48 Straight-Shooter, #49 Rem1858, #50 grimjaw, #51 TheBigAR2003, #52 Hoof Hearted, #53 kbbailey, #54 Bill Aikins, #55 voodoochile, #56 oam, #57 kameron1858, #58 GENTLEMAN OF THE CHARCOAL, #59 72coupe, #60 Gambit88, #61 Olmontanaboy, #62 Cearbhall, #63 bwsmith2850, #64 chute2thrill, #65 Geneseo1911, #66 black_powder_Rob #67 Sleazy Rider #68 Captain*kirk #69 Dave Markowitz

By the way, I read the sad news this evening about Euroarms, although I am not clear if it's just the US arm of the company or the Italian company... It would be a real shame to lose a C&B manufacturer - there are a good few Euroarms replicas amongst our membership!
 
Serial numbers by themselves don't mean a thing. All markings, evaluated together, is how a gun can be authenticated.
 
Sounds more like it's been ''defarbed''. Original makers were proud of their product, and usually had the company name, and sometimes even the address on the barrel.
 
I notice that the area of the frame where the barrel is threaded in is of the earlier design (think this is like the Remington Beals?) but the cylinder has the safety notches between chambers, which is a later feature. I really don't know enough about the history of the design to make an identification on the basis of this, but I believe the two features together are unusual. An expert will no doubt be along in a while to educate us all! :D

Do you have any close-up photos?
 
This gun has been discussed on The Firing Line for the last couple of days. Before he received the gun Waynes World reported that he was told it carried the 1861 Remington Old Army barrel stamp; my evaluation included that as fact, something which has apparently not been realized. Here's my evaluation, originally posted on The Firing Line:
This gun has some contradictions.

There were 3 'large frame' Remington revolvers made before and during the Civil War:
1) the 1860 Remington-Beals Army Model Revolver, about 1,900 made in 1861.
2) the 1861 Remington Old Model Army Revolver, about 9,000 made in 1862 & 1863,
3) the 1863 Remington New Model Army Revolver, about 122,000 made in 1863 through 1875.

1. The serial number indicates it is an 1861 Remington Old Model Army, the second model of the 3. Further, from the number it would be an early manufacture of that model.

2. The stamp on the barrel also indicates it is an 1861 Remington Old Model Army. This is the only model that stamp appeared on.

3. The frame appears, from the photo, to be from the 1860 Remington-Beals Army Model, which was the first of the 3. The frame covers the barrel threads at the breech end. Correction of this defect was the main reason for changing to the Old Model Army. It's possible that, being an early manufacture Old Model, it was built with remaining frame stock from the earlier Beals design. However, I've never seen reference to such a transition model. This contradicts 1. and 2. above.

4. The loading lever does not appear (from the photo) to have the relief allowing the cylinder pin to be pulled out with the lever stowed. This was a feature of the 1861 Old Model Army design only. This contradicts 1. and 2. and supports 3. above.

5. The hammer notches on the cylinder were indeed introduced late in the manufacture of the 1861 Old Model and appeared on all the 1863 New Model guns. It's possible, in fact likely, the cylinder is not the one that came with the gun originally. This contradicts 1. and 3. above.

It must be remembered that armories mixed and matched parts in repairing guns throughout the war. I don't find it unusual that this gun appears to have features that appeared on different models. We tend to want to believe that every antique is as originally manufactured, an assumption that is far too often an unwarranted simplification.

I have one of the Euroarms replicas of the 1860 Remington-Beals Army Model Revolvers. It is a contradiction in itself, as it has the cylinder hammer notches of the later 1861 and 1863 models and is stamped 'New Model Army' on the barrel. The OP's gun does not match the Euroarms replica as regards the barrel annotation.
(Please excuse the erroneous date in the photo caption)
0043.jpg
Click to expand...
 
So , it may be original, but a mix-master? That would explain a lot..thanks for the insight, Mykeal.Makes sense, especially, as you said with a military arm.
 
Anticipation ...

I'm hopin' to be a full-fledged member by Thursday, in fact, my heart pounds whenever I see a Big Brown Truck on the road.

In the meantime, I just ordered 5 pound of Goex black powder from Powder Inc. as follows (there's a 5-pound minimum): 2 pounds of FFF for my Remmy-yet-to-come; 2 pounds FF for my 30-year old TC Hawkin; and 1 pound of FFFF for a flintlock rifle that I hope to someday own. I can get Triple Seven locally, but it's nearly 40 bucks a pound when it's available, and it doesn't make a lot of smoke. The 5 pounds of REAL black powder came to $109.00 with shipping and HazMat fees---about half the price.

I can't wait to see the look on my wife's face tonight when I tell her how much money I saved her! :D

Maybe I'll tell her tomorrow. Or Friday.
 
thank you for your opinions. im still just confused.

should all the serials match if it is original?

there is a 3digit serial number 889 under the barrell and under the left handle plate but the serial on the bottom of the gun is a 4digit number.

also, there is NO legend on top of the barrell. the numbers described above are the only markings on this gun.
 
should all the serials match if it is original?
Click to expand...
Not necessarily, especially considering the mixed configuration. The mis-match of serial numbers reinforces my opinion that it's possibly original put together in a field armory from parts of different guns. That was not an unusual situation. Putting together a gun with mis-matched serial numbers and parts from different models is not something someone would do if they were attempting to defarb a replica and pass it off as an original.

there is NO legend on top of the barrell.
Click to expand...
That's unfortunate. The armory parts gun theory is still viable as spare parts barrels would not necessarily have factory stamps on them, especially those that could be interchanged across model lines. But at this point your gun's configuration closely resembles the early Euroarms replica of the 1860 Remington-Beals Army Revolver that I have. Everything except the Euroarms stamps on the barrel, which would be the first thing a defarber would remove.

So, one of two possibilities: a defarbed early Euroarms 1860 Remington-Beals Army Model revolver replica, or an original built from parts of several guns as was often done in a contemporary armory. The mis-matched serial numbers make me lean slightly towards the latter as a counterfeiter could reasonably be expected to make them match.
 
thanks you so much, i appreciate, ya i kinda figured if someone was going to try and make it as real as possible, they wouldnt do it half aced.
 
''I bought a 2nd Dragoon 3 weeks ago and STILL haven't mentioned it...''
that's why I like sixguns, 1911's and BHP's! If the redhead knew how many I had of each, I'd be a dead man! She thinks I only have three handguns, LOL!
 
One way to tell is to look at the pitch of the screws. Italian repros have metric threads as opposed to standard threads.
 
How to "Introduce" a new gun to your wife

When you buy a new gun, keep it hidden for a week or two. (I know that is hard to do as you want to shoot the thing right away). After a bit, let the weapon be seen in passing with other weapons of similar type. i.e. pistols with your new pistol.....

When your wife finally asks the question "When did you get this one?" you can honestly say "This one? Oh, I've had that one for a while. Guess you just never seen it." In this manner, you can get a new weapon. Get to keep the new weapon. And not be lying to your wife!:D

Lesson #4 of: Wades methods of getting new guns and not getting the wife all mad at ya! Why is this Lesson #4? Because the first three didn't work:what::what: Trial and error at it's finest!

Wade
 
You might be on to something 45-70 Ranger, but I wish you had posted that a few days earlier. When I informed my wife about my recent "investments," there was silence, followed by some mumbling about groceries, the price of heating oil, and her mom's operation. I took it to mean that she was very pleased with my frugality. The way I figger' it, most Americans can stand to lose a few pounds if we're to believe statistics, I can always cut and split more firewood, and her mom's had that wart on the end of her nose for decades.
:)
 
After a bit, let the weapon be seen in passing with other weapons of similar type. i.e. pistols with your new pistol.....
Click to expand...
That brings up another important point to remember - the concept of "critical mass". It works like this: if you add one gun to an existing gun, the size of your gun collection has just doubled, and it is obvious even to those who are not gun collectors. If you add a third gun, still a pretty big addition, and pretty high visibility. But at some point, the number of guns becomes large enough that another addition becomes virtually invisible to the non-gun-collecting eye. This point is critical mass.
That's why the more you have, the more you can get away with.:D
 
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