Thumb Position on Handguns

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There is some good logic there, as there is in most of those videos.

To me, the key point is "to adapt".

I shoot low thumbs with revolver, and ride the thumb safety of the 1911. With a gun like an S&W 4506 or Beretta PX4, I've found myself using high or low thumb on different occasions.
 
I’ve been shooting thumbs-forward with all my autos…

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And thumbs-down with my revolvers…

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For at least the past thirty years at work and in competitive endeavors. (I’m no Rob Leatham or Massad Ayoob by any means!)

These grips work for me, others may use a different technique. IMHO there are no rights or wrongs as long as you are comfortable, solid, consistent and aren’t getting slide-cuts, inadvertently popping the thumb safety on or losing control of the gun and having to regrip a lot. :)

Stay safe.
 
A while back I started practicing weak hand only with a small 9mm pistol loaded with hot +p ammo. Instinct had me lower my thumb a good bit. After the first shot my thumb was curled down as far as it would go. Mas is 100% correct about the increase in grip strength with a low thumb and is needed for one hand shooting. It’s also a safer way to retain your gun in a close quarters defense situation. As he demonstrated in the video, it’s harder to lever the gun out of your hand with a low thumb. I’ve also been shooting revolvers more lately and the low thumb habit is creeping into my semi auto shooting. Need more testing but I’m starting to like it.
 
The most important point Ayoob makes
is that in defensive, one-handed
shooting the thumb down position
seems to give the best control.

In this day and age of ''combat''
shooting games, the two-hand
thumbs anywhere methods seem
to work fine with autos.
 
Black rfiles,

No, one-hand skills are not just for
bullseye shooting.

I suspect modern
"combat" schools stress "mostly
two hand" because it's easier to
teach a varied bunch of shooters
quickly.

One-handed defensive
shooting requires more training,
more disciplined skills.

And no, one-hand shooting doesn't
just mean stiff-armed aiming in
the classic bullseye stance.
 
Oh, please.
Whatever works.
Ditto.

What I've found after much ado about various stances and various grips is that all are much ado about unnecessary detail. Do whatever it takes to:
1) maintain a straight line of sight from eyeball through rear sight through front sight to desired point of impact all the way through trigger pull & detonation, and then ...
2) don't lose hold of the gun
3) don't fall over backwards
4) don't hurt yourself

posted in somewhat bemused hyperbole, except for point #1
 
No one is saying you can't hold your
handgun any way you find is best
for you.

The only main point is that the thumb
down position offers the best grip and
control, especially when using the
gun with one hand. Don't buy into
this concept, that's OK.

But you might at least give it a bit
of consideration and even try it,
compare it to the thumb aflying
concepts.
 
I think this is one of those "the more you know" sorta things. You need to try and learn as many things as you can and take advantage of what you learn in doing so.

Grips and stances are not fixed in stone and are adaptable as you go, so you use what works best for you "in the moment".

If Im shooting two-handed, be it autos or revolvers, I use a thumbs forward grip. One-handed, it depends, but its usually more of a thumb down as it gives a stronger grip.

Ive found when using a two-handed grip, the thumb down grip doesnt give as firm or solid a grip or as much meat on the gun as the thumbs forward does. Going from two hands to one hand, the thumb naturally just curls down to make up for the lack of support from the other hand.

I think theres an advantage here for those of us who have been around a while and came through the different techniques as they arrived, were wrung out, and moved on to next best thing to arrive. If all you know is the latest and greatest, you dont have that base of knowledge to draw on as things might change.

You really notice this when youre shooting as you move and deal with things in a 360* bubble, instead of just whats in front of you. Its impossible to maintain a specific two handed stance/grip every second and you have to actually morph through different things, whether youre aware of it or not, as you have to shoot at different points on the compass as you go. As an example, try shooting a two-handed isosceles stance as you move off to 11 o'clock, and shoot at a target thats at 4 o'clock as you go.
 
FWIW the DI that taught a much younger me to shoot a 1911 subscribed to the thumb down method. I've never experienced, nor have I ever observed someone else experience, the thumb accidentally engaging the safety thingamabob. YMMV.
 
A couple score years shooting thumb over for pistol and revolver. Same grip for 1911 and model 19.
If you shoot semi auto, thumb forward may be fine, however, I think it counter productive to severely change grips if you shoot revolvers as well.
 
I dont think you need to change grips between autos and revolvers. Ive been shooting both with a thumbs forward grip since I switched to it.

My offhand thumb doesnt go forward of the face of the cylinder when I shoot a revolver. The only time I ever got bit shooting a revolver with that grip, was with a Chiapa Rhino, and that was simply because the gun is not your typical revolver, and they have an enlarged chamber at the gap, that protrudes rearward a bit past the front of the cylinder.

Even then, it just nipped the tip of my thumb, and was easily corrected. It did instantly get my attention though. And actually, because of it, that correction, which is to curl the offhand thumb at the first knuckle, down onto the edge of the frame below the cylinder, it makes the likelihood of it being a problem with any of them a nonissue.

As with the autos, I think you do benefit more from using the TF grip with the revolvers, as it does give more control. And as with the autos when you first switch, it does take a little getting used to.
 
I have a little Kimber Micro 9 and was flipping the safety back on from the recoil with a standard grip. I went to the thumb down and trapping it with the support hand and it eliminated the the other problem. Took a while to get comfortable with it.
 
Interesting.

I learned to cross my thumbs for revolver. It works and thumbing the hammer with the left thumb is faster than with the right for me, if you're shooting sa.

I could see thumbs down on a full size gun but on a tiny carry gun no, there's no room!
 
FWIW the DI that taught a much younger me to shoot a 1911 subscribed to the thumb down method. I've never experienced, nor have I ever observed someone else experience, the thumb accidentally engaging the safety thingamabob. YMMV.


The 1911A1 service pistol came with a safety identical to this one:


WDiif60.jpg


this is a picture of a genuine pre A1 model, WW1 issue Colt. The 1911 model has an even smaller safety, and notice also, how short the issue grip safety and wide the hammer spurs. The gun was designed to be thumb cocked, and the grip safety was out of the way, and the hammer spurs were wide to facilitate thumb cocking. Original 1911s are so expensive that it was cheaper to steal the picture instead of buying the pistol.


HXUqC4e.jpg


I suspect the pistol you trained with was close to the configuration of the first pistol. However, post WW2, Cult Cocked and Locked modified the 1911 so they could play quick draw “combat” games. Fastest man wins. If you remember the pistol in the service, there was very little need for quick draw games, and the issue holster was clearly not designed to win “walk and draw” competitions. An issue pistol was carried in the issue holster and that was hung low on a web belt, and the holster had this monster flap.

OqlpWfy.jpg

wqhmEjF.jpg


Cult Cocked and Locked has modified the 1911 beyond anything that John Browning or MG Crozier would recognize. And so, you have these huge safeties, that if propped with a 2 X 4 , could double as a diving board! The lever advantage of an extended safety, is such, these things are easily bumped in either direction without the shooter knowing. And there is one final indignity, occasionally the holder of the weapon forgets to take the safety off his cocked and locked weapon!

4 Reasons I Don't Trust The 1911 with my Life



I did take a Thunder Ranch class and the instructor made us “ride” the safety. This is prudent if someone decides to carry one of these quick draw optimized, 1911’s for self defense.

Another modification that Cult Cocked and Locked has made to their 1911’s, is that the beavertail has been modified so the pistol rides lower in the hand. Take a look at this 1911, with a “high” beavertail

1bADkOh.jpg



And this pistol which has an early Clark beavertail

zW8wZuT.jpg

I removed the Swenson ambi because the thing kept on being bumped to the "fire" position, and it was this, that lead me to question the doctrinal tenets of Cult Cocked and Locked.

XbO76Om.jpg

This Clark beavertail was made so the shooter could hold the hammer down, with his thumb, with the slide back, as the slide stop was released. This was a common safety practice back in the day when NRA Bullseye Pistol was the dominate pistol competition. Hammers and sears were typically military surplus, and honed to a light, no creep trigger. Unfortunately, these parts wore, and occasionally the hammer would follow the slide down. Holding the hammer back prevented discharge on the load command. Similar to the military configuration 1911, the Clark grip safety places the thumb below the safety. Modern beavertails place the hand so high, that the thumb is right at safety level. Incidentally, the hammer cannot be held down because there is no room between the hammer spur and beavertail. Because the thumb is so high, an extended safety must be ridden, because it is so easy to inadvertently bump the thing in either direction. The shooter won’t notice until it becomes apparent, that the gun is not going bang, and from there, there are multiple failure modes that have to be explored before the correct failure mode is determined.
 
Thumbs forward.

Thumb down ejects my magazine. Ffs. Worse than that, it can also turn my safety on during recoil.

Nope, no thanks. 1980's grips belong in the 1980's.

From what you state, then the controls on your particular 1911 are
poorly designed for you. By that I mean you might need stiffer
mag and safety releases and certainly not oversized ones if that
might be the case.
 
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They're as stiff as anything out there. Using a proper grip solves all of those problems.

My thumb rides the safety. The thumb butt of my support hand is directly under the safety.

Switching to thumbs down, puts my thumb directly over the mag release, and directly under the thumb safety. With nothing to hold the safety down in recoil. 2 bad things just waiting to happen.

Thumbs down messes up my support hand completely. Just tried it, it sucks. Thumbs down is a piss poor grip style. I won't teach it. That's for revolvers.

If small womens hands can't ride the safety thumbs forward, then I suggest moving away from that pistol, and to a Glock type pistol.

If I had to switch to thumbs down to get a pistol to work, like the Kimber story above, I'd simply sell that pistol and not look back.
 
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Proper grip:
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I shoot thumbs forward with my 1911's, but I dont ride the safety. I cant, it breaks my grip and screws with the grip safety. My strong hand thumb is just off to the side of the safety on top of my weak hand thumb.

I shot thumbs down with the 1911's for years, and never had a safety get kicked back on due to recoil. Never had any issues with the mag releases either. Maybe its a long thumbs vs short thumbs thing. :)

One thing with the 1911's and their controls, and especially the thumb safety, and sometimes the grip safety, each gun seems to be its own animal. Ive had some thumb safeties that almost took to hands to get off, and others that seemed to fall off almost by themselves. Its an easily remedied thing, but its something that may well need that remedy.

Grip safeties need attention too. Ive had a couple of new guns that came from the factory and the grip safety didnt work at all, and the trigger would drop with the safety depressed or not.

The thumbs down grip definitely compromises the two handed grip on the gun though and leaves that uncomfortable gap under the weak hand that the thumbs forward takes care of. Its just a much more secure and comfortable grip. Once you remove that weak hand though, you need to roll that strong thumb down if you want to maintain a good grip on the gun.
 
I might still try a very small thumb safety on 1911s sometimes. Just a little nub.

Grips more like a Glock then. The paddles, I have to go over. My support thumb is in direct contact under them.

If the DWX compact comes out, I'll try it again there.
 
. Once you remove that weak hand though, you need to roll that strong thumb down if you want to maintain a good grip on the gun.

And so, back to the original point of this thread: One hand, one thumb. :(

Also with an emphasis on revolvers. :)
 
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