Time to end the confusion: READ HERE About CA SB 357 and AB 352!!!!

[El Rojo]

That's the biggest market in the US - there is no way a major manufacturer would walk away from it. Granted - Barrett did, but let's face it, he's got a niche product.

That is it, I am going to declare it, Ronnie Barrett is a marketing genius. The State of California banned the sale of .50 BMG rifles to civilians in the state, so Barrett has no choice not to sell guns to PRKians. He can't sell to us even if he wanted to. So he has a handful or less of Barrett rifles that PRK government agencies use, so he cuts them off. We are talking a miniscule amount of rifles here. Suddenly he is a 2nd Amendment folk hero for taking on the whole State of California and "taking a huge revenue cut" all in the name of principle and he is now the can never go wrong .45 ACP of gun manufacturers. I will call him Ronnie "Garand" Barrett from now on because he is the holy grail of gun manufacturers for the stand he took in California and anyone who says anything bad about him is like a man who says the Garand isn't a battle rifle or that the .45 ACP is the king of handgun cartridges.

Back on topic. I guess we shouldn't complain when our side uses scare tactics to try and motivate everyone to take political action. It isn't a ban, but it will increase the cost of ammo a whole lot. Lets just call it a ban anyway right? Misrepresenting the truth in order to scare the populace to take action is an acceptable way to get votes and motivate political action. The anti's do it all the time, so why shouldn't we?

 

[Doctor Suarez]

Small bit of good news:

The Police Protective League has come out AGAINST SB 357!

Don't give up the fight, but at the same time, don't lose hope. I think this one is starting to stink so bad even Arnold can smell it.

 

[Gung-Ho]

It isn't a ban, but it will increase the cost of ammo a whole lot.

Lets see if you feel the same way after somefinds a few pieces of brass you lost at the range....and sprinkles them around a crime scene.

 

[Beethoven]

Back on topic. I guess we shouldn't complain when our side uses scare tactics to try and motivate everyone to take political action. It isn't a ban, but it will increase the cost of ammo a whole lot. Lets just call it a ban anyway right? Misrepresenting the truth in order to scare the populace to take action is an acceptable way to get votes and motivate political action. The anti's do it all the time, so why shouldn't we?

Read Carnitas' post a few posts above yours and then try to tell me how this is not a de facto ammunition ban.

C'mon Rojo....you're smarter than that.

 

[El Rojo]

This is not a defacto ammunition ban. Facts are facts. Will it increase the cost of ammo a whole lot? Sure. Can you still get it? Yes. So is it a ban? No. We are splitting hairs and mainly I am aruging with you because I am right and I can. Should we fight this? Of course! Should peoplel call it an ammo ban even though it isn't in order to scare people into taking action? If they want, sure go for it. The end result is all that matters.

However, it isn't an ammunition ban. Sorry, it just isn't.

Lets see if you feel the same way after somefinds a few pieces of brass you lost at the range....and sprinkles them around a crime scene.

What does the cost of ammunition going up under SB 357 have to do with the microstamping requirements of AB 352? The answer? Nothing. Second, how are they going to get microstamped brass from my grandfathered Glock 27 from the range and spread it around a crime scene? The answer? They aren't. Third, my lawyer is going to be the first to say, "My client first of all doesn't even have a handgun with the microstamping capability and even if he did, there is no proof he was at the scene of the crime because he does shoot at a public range so anyone could have planted that brass there." We know that this microstamping will have little to no effect on crime, even the anti-gunners will, that is why there is a revolver exemption! All this is going to do is make revolvers popular and in fact, it might increase public safety because gang bangers might do drive bys with 6 shot revolvers instead of their 17 shot Glocks or 30 round Macs, by the way which are probably stolen or are illegal and won't lead anyone to anything anyway.

See, nothing like using some little scare tactics to get people riled up and start spouting off about falacies of gun legislation without any real knowledge of what these bills do and what they are. Then again in Gung-Ho's defense, all gun bills should be opposed and they are often so confusing everyone can't help to not understand what they really do. The important thing is Gung Ho and everyone understands they are bad and need to be fought.

Get 'em riled up some more! It is working. Hey, by the way, did you guys see that video going around of the snipers in the Middle East blowing away terrorists that hide in rocks with a .50 BMG?

One last point. What might it do to our credibility with non-shooters when they hear us spouting off, and I quote, "This bill will effectively ban handgun ammo in the state of CA should it be signed into law." Is that true? Will it ban handgun ammo? No it won't. Here pretend I am an anti gunner.

The shooters are just hysterical babblers because the price of their ammo is only going to go up a half a cent and they are just trying to stop effective law enforcement in the name of saving a dollar on a box of ammo. This is not an ammo ban, people can still buy ammo and this is just a way to help law enforcement track criminals.

See how easy that is to turn around on us? We all know the half cent tax is miniscule compared to the techinical costs of making the ammo. So make that the issue. Make references to cars. Make it sound like they are going to raise the costs of tires that must have microstamping tread that leave an impression in all surfaces so they can track criminal vehicles. And this will cost about 800% more or whatever it is just to solve a few crimes. Should everyone have to pay for this? Now what if someone steals your car tires or even your car? How effective is the database going to be?

I just am not a big fan of hysterics is all. Tell the truth and say what it is really going to do. Cost us a whole lot of money. Why do we always rag on anti-gunners and how do we know they are wrong? Because they like to blow things out of proportion and misrepresent what their bills are going to do. I in good conscious can't do what I critisize them for. However, I will be counting on a few of you s to do it for me!

 

[Gung-Ho]

I don't really care how you want to dance around this, but many including me will NEVER buy or use ammo with numbers on it. And TWO it DOES BAN reloaded ammo. I and many others have reloaded for years and years, and this will legally put an end to it. If this becomes law, the goverment can go make love to itself. I will move to Wyoming.

 

[El Rojo]

DOES BAN reloaded ammo

Wrong. It bans reloading unserialized ammo. You can still buy serialized bullets and reload them 50 at a time. :banghead: Sorry, I am in a splitting hairs mood tonight. I am with you Gung Ho. I will probably be a criminal if this one goes through. I will not comply. I do plan on giving Arnold hell when it clears the assembly and heads his way.

 

[railroader]

El Rojo, 1st with sb 357 the serial number will be on the brass and the bullet so picked up brass could spread at a crime scene. Ab 352 is for handguns that stamp a serial number on the brass. As for there being ammo and serialized bullets available from what I have read all the major ammo manufacturers want nothing to do with it because of the cost of retooling and the cost of the ammo will be way too high. So is some outside company going to step up and make this overpriced ammo? How long do you think the FFL's are going to be in business trying to sell guns that use very expensive ammo let alone sell the ammo itself. I don't know where you live but there are very few firearm dealers near me anymore just because it is so hard to do business in this state. So your local dealer goes under so where do you buy this ammo? Over the internet, no because it has to be registered through a dealer. Maybe a ban isn't the right word, how about a slow death? Mark

 

[El Rojo]

How long do you think the FFL's are going to be in business trying to sell guns that use very expensive ammo let alone sell the ammo itself.

That is a good point. If you have nothing to shoot out of it, do you still want to buy a gun? Well since this only effects the handgun crowd, there will still be plenty of rifles and shotguns for sale. So we wouldn't die just yet.

SB 357 has nothing to do with brass. It is simply an ID number on bullets. (simply, that wasn't supposed to be a joke, but it turned into one) So under SB 357 brass will not come into play. Heck even with the microstamping required under AB 352, this doesn't apply to curious and relics, so there will still be other handguns you can bring in, and more importantly it won't apply to the million of handguns already in the state. So they can pick up my brass all they want, because my brass isn't going to have microstamping on it.

I can tell you what whill happen if SB 357 goes through. There is going to be a huge amount of non-compliance and most likely a black market. The worst thing about SB 357 is it will apply to all .22LR ammo!!! Maybe I should get a .17 HMR afterall.

There is one manufacturer out there that is willing to make the bullets with the numbers on them. They are the geniuses who introduced this to the liberals in charge and they are the reason the anti-gunners can get away with saying the technology is available. If this thing passes, I might just buy some of their stock.

 

[Brett Bellmore]

Well since this only effects the handgun crowd

As I read the bill, all ammo that could be used in a handgun must be serialized. And it doesn't say it has to be a mass production handgun, either. So, as a practical matter, if there are any rounds out there that no custom gun currently is capable of firing, I suppose they could pay somebody to tool one or two up. And, bingo! It's handgun ammo.

So it effects everybody but the shotgunners.

 

[R.H. Lee]

You can still buy serialized bullets and reload them 50 at a time.

No, you cannot buy serialized bullets because NOBODY MAKES THEM.
Sheesh.

 

[El Rojo]

No, you cannot buy serialized bullets because NOBODY MAKES THEM.
Sheesh.

Not true. Read this from the SAAMI Website.

The California proposal being Attorney General Lockyer is based on technology under limited development and testing by Ravensforge Skateboard Solutions (www.ravensforge.com), a company that specializes in products to prevent damage by roller blades and skateboards. To our knowledge Ravensforge has not consulted with any firearms manufacturer on incorporating this technology into ammunition manufacturing. It appears Ravensforge is seeking to be a “sole source” provider of this technology and creating a monopoly for itself through legislative fiat.

True it is under limited development, but they don't have to have it perfected to make money off of it. And it appears the fact that this isn't a tried and tested science won't deter our representatives any.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Interesting links, Red, but they only prove my point-the technology to make serialized bullets does not even exist. And if it did it would be prohibitively
expensive.

Note to everyone else in the other 49 states. The SAAMI website says

If manufacturers were forced to abandon the California market, many could face bankruptcy, and our armed forces, homeland security, and state and local law enforcement would suddenly find themselves facing dramatically increased costs for their ammunition.

So, if this horror becomes law, please take up the slack. Buy ammo and lots of it. You don't have to shoot it, just hang onto it for us. We'll buy it back from you after we clean house here.

 

[SIGarmed]

Wrong. It bans reloading unserialized ammo. You can still buy serialized bullets and reload them 50 at a time. Sorry, I am in a splitting hairs mood tonight. I am with you Gung Ho. I will probably be a criminal if this one goes through. I will not comply. I do plan on giving Arnold hell when it clears the assembly and heads his way.

El Rojo please read the bill.

If you mean you can reload after the bill theoretically gets signed into law that is technicaly correct. You should keep in mind that there is also no provision for taking any unserialized handgun ammunition outside of your home after the ban contrary to what has been said. This is a speculated revision that the gun prohibitionist may use to make it easier to swallow in the final version of the bill.

After this becomes law all reloading handgun bullets will have to be serialized. One thing also not mentioned is that there will be a special reloading tax of .05 on each bullet purchased after the sales tax you already pay. So why reload?

This is essentially the ammo tax bill that was vetoed last year by the governor incorporated into SB 357.

This is going to have a big effect on rifle and carbine shooters that use calibers considered hangun ammunition.

 

[Gewehr98]

Reminds me of another legislative blunder in the PRK...

That was SB-23. Passed the house and senate, Gray Davis signed it, and voila'! Civil disobedience began on a large scale.

What? You guys in California thought all of those thousands of banned magazine-fed autoloading rifles got registered with the California DOJ as soon as SB-23 became law? The DOJ still doesn't know why only a fraction of the banned guns they estimated were in the state ended up on the registry. They could've swore there were gonna be a bunch more registrations.
The guns are still there, but instead of appearing at public ranges, they're toted up into the Sierra Nevadas and fired miles away from the peering eyes of those who would ban them. Been there, seen that.

Same thing will happen if SB 357 and AB 352 become law. People will just plain ignore the law, get more wheelweights from the America's Tire Company down the street, and cast their wadcutters at home in their garage. To avoid the potential for some silly component registry at the local gun store (kinda like the ammo registry at Sports Authority out there), they'll order their powder online from Wideners, and fire up the Dillon like nothing ever happened.

The guy with the Magma or Policlips automated bullet casting machine will be real popular on the PRK bullet black market.

 

[El Rojo]

I read the bill. It says a 1/2 cent tax on each bullet, not 5 cents. Also there is no provision for stamping brass in SB 357 as has been reported by some organizations. You might want to go read the bill again yourself.

In addition what is handgun ammo and what isn't? From the latest text of SB 357.

(c) (1) For purposes of this chapter, "serialized handgun
ammunition" means any of the following, which are subject to
serialization pursuant to subdivision (d):
(A) Ammunition as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12323.
(B) .22 caliber rimfire ammunition.
(C) Assembled handgun ammunition packaged for retail sale.
(D) Bullets used for reloading or handloading handgun ammunition
that are packaged for retail sale.

So what in the hell is "(A) Ammunition as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12323."???Well 12323 says.

12323. As used in this chapter, the following definitions shall
apply:
(a) "Handgun ammunition" means ammunition principally for use in
pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed
upon the person, as defined in subdivision (a) of Section 12001,
notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles.

So what in the hell does 12001 say?

12001. (a) (1) As used in this title, the terms "pistol,"
"revolver," and "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person"
shall apply to and include any device designed to be used as a
weapon, from which is expelled a projectile by the force of any
explosion, or other form of combustion, and that has a barrel less
than 16 inches in length. These terms also include any device that
has a barrel 16 inches or more in length which is designed to be
interchanged with a barrel less than 16 inches in length.
(2) As used in this title, the term "handgun" means any "pistol,"
"revolver," or "firearm capable of being concealed upon the person."

So now that we have finished the trail of legal mumbo jumbo, the question really is, what does it mean by being principally for use in pistols, revolvers, and other firearms capable of being concealed upon the person and the additional notwithstanding that the ammunition may also be used in some rifles? Just because there are .223 pistols, I think my lawyer could argue that the .223 round was not created principally for use in handguns. This created principally is the tricky part, what does it really mean? I don't think they are going to be able to say because someone somewhere has a .300 WSM pistol, you have to register your .300 WSM ammo. But hey, don't let that stop you, spread that rummor and get the fear going. Afterall, that is what this thread is all about.

The bad news is it lists .22 caliber rimfire ammo by name, so we are screwed.

 

[SIGarmed]

I somehow got 1/2 and .05 messed up that I can admit.

Anyhow if this passes it's civil disobedience time. The gun banners need to hear from us, but I also don't think the governor will sign it.

M1 .30 carbine may be effected and cowboy action shooters will be. Lever guns. Never said anything about a .300 WSM although I wouldn't put it past the grabbers to try.


It's yet to be determined if the M1 .30 is going to be effected, but I'm sure there are some pistols chambered for this out here in California so it's a very good possibility.

If this travesty would pass I don't doubt for a second centerfire rifle cartridges are next. They never stop. The gun banners propose something every year.

Fear mongering? Is that what you call it. When a bill like this passes through the legislature like nothing it's fear mongering? You have to be kidding.

 

[railroader]

So 223 ammo isn't for handguns even though there are handguns chambered for it. That I agree with. Now are the lawyers going to argue with online ammo dealers that refuse to ship "rifle" ammo to california because the the law isn't specific enough. I know of one example of a company that has great deals and refuses to ship to california now. That would be CDNN investments. They will no longer ship any semi-auto firearm to california regardless if they are legal here or not. I asked them why and they said they don't want to have to deal with it anymore. That is just one company but there are others that refuse to ship certain firearms to california even though they are legal.So if our state isn't specific as to what is legal and what isn't I can see us getting screwed even on rifle ammo if dealers out of california are wary. Personally I reload and buy ammo online so I can afford to shoot. Mark

 

[griz]

I would like to challenge your claim that serialized bullets DO exist. Where can I buy them? When you go to the provided link, or search ravens forge, the best you can get is playground equipment. To me that adds up to non-existence of serialized bullets.

And before you say it's only handgun ammo, I will remind you that about 10 years ago entire shiploads of 7.62X39 ammo were prevented from entering this country because their steel cores made them armor piercing handgun ammo. Please don't count on the reasonableness of the people who are trying to price ammuniton out of the reach of non-government shooters. (Note that I didn't say ban, but that will be the result)

Yes I know that as the law now reads law enforcement agencys are not exempted. But if the ammo companies end up not making ANY serialized ammo, the exemption will only be a pen stroke away.

Lastly, the California Attorney General site shows a serialized bullet that was recovered after hitting a car door. The number is 123A06. unless they plan on expanding that number quite a bit, they will only be able to cover the first couple million rounds coming into CA.

 

[R.H. Lee]

I draw 2 conclusions from the California AG website:

1) If you're going to commit a crime, do it with an unserialized bullet.

2) Don't buy/register any serialized bullets as they could implicate you in a crime you didn't commit.

 

[Gewehr98]

It would be so easy to mess with the PRK DOJ were these two bills enacted...

1. Don't buy the serialized ammunition - steal it or somehow obtain it from a source without your information going on the sales register. Purchase using an alias of false identification. Break the chain so nothing associates you with the serial numbers of the bullets.

2. Use a firearm that doesn't microstamp in compliance with AB 352. There will be plenty of non-compliant guns in that state even after the bill is enacted. If it's a revolver, even better because you don't need to police up your brass afterwards.

3. After commission of (name your gun infraction here) make certain to either keep the fired brass for transport to an out-of-state handloader (one of the 49 states that doesn't give a rat's behind about either SB 357 or AB 352), or deposit all of the fired brass somewhere like a public pistol range, mixed in with thousands of other pieces of serialized and non-serialized PRK brass. Go get 'em, DOJ!

 

[Librarian]

Darned legislature with its numbering system...

AB352 is the case-marked-by-the-pistol bill:

AB 352, as amended, Koretz. Firearms: microstamping.
Existing law defines unsafe handguns as failing to pass certain
tests, or lacking certain features, as specified.
This bill would, commencing January 1, 2007, expand the definition
of unsafe handgun to include semiautomatic pistols that are not
designed and equipped with a microscopic array of characters, that
identify the make, model, and serial number of the pistol, etched
into the interior surface or internal working parts of the pistol,
and which are transferred by imprinting on each cartridge case when
the firearm is fired.

However, SB357 says

(d) For purposes of this chapter, "serialized" means all of the
following have been met:
(1) The ammunition has been identified in a manner prescribed by
the Department of Justice so that all assembled ammunition contained
within a package provided for retail sale, or as otherwise specified
by the department, is uniquely identified.
(2) Bullets used for reloading or handloading contained within a
package provided for retail sale, or as otherwise specified by the
department, are uniquely identified.
(3) Identification of the manufacturer of the items described in
paragraphs (1) and (2).
(4) Identification on the exterior of the items described in
paragraphs (1) and (2) in a manner that permits visual inspection for
the purpose of determining if the assembled ammunition or bullet
complies with the provisions of this section.
(5) Identification on the exterior of the items described in
paragraphs (1) and (2) in a manner that is maintained subsequent to
the discharge of the ammunition and subsequent to the impact of the
bullet, based on standards prescribed by the department.
(6) Identification on the exterior of every package or container
of serialized ammunition, as prescribed by the department, with the
same unique identifiers used on the assembled ammunition or bullets
contained within the packaging or container. No package or container
shall be labeled with the same unique identifiers as any other
package or container by the same manufacturer.

I don't see how the requirements of (4) and (5) can be met without marking the brass, and the analysis document here suggests

http://www.ammocoding.com/index.php
[Ack! Ptui! Sorry for the plug, but it's in the analysis doc]

That is a website for Ammunition Coding System (ACS) with a
Seattle address and includes the following:

Bullet Identification Technology: A modern crime
fighting tool

In an effort to provide law enforcement with modern
crime fighting tools, a new patentpending bullet
identification technology known as the Ammunition
Coding System (ACS) has been developed. ACS assigns a
unique code to every round of ammunition manufactured,
and by recording sales records, law enforcement
personnel will be able to easily trace the ammunition
involved in a crime and have an avenue to pursue and
solve even the most difficult cases. The key to ACS is
the unique code that is micro-laser engraved on
factory-produced ammunition. This laser engraving is
etched on both the projectile and the inside of the
cartridge casing. Each code will be common to a single
box of cartridges and unique from all other ammunition
sold. The unique ACS codes will be tracked and records
maintained to identify individual ammunition purchases.
The ACS technology will provide a method for law
enforcement personnel to trace ammunition purchases and
link bullets and cartridge cases found at crime scenes
to the initial retail ammunition purchaser. This
system will not necessarily prove who pulled the
trigger, but it will provide law enforcement with a
valuable lead and a starting point to quickly begin
their investigations. The design of the ACS laser
engraving system will allow law enforcement personnel
to identify the bullet code in cases where as little as
20% of the bullet base remains intact after recovery.
Since bullets are designed to keep the base solid and
in its original configuration, the likelihood of ACS
codes remaining legible after recovery is very high.
Law enforcement testing has already shown a 99% success
rate in identifying the ACS code after bullet recovery.

so the proponents of the bill appear to have such a thing in mind.

 

[Can'thavenuthingood]

The intent of these laws is to fight and solve crime.

So by using a different gun (non-microstamped) the investigation is not solved or closed. The only way to close this "untraceable ammo usage" is to ban guns that do not have the microstamping capability.

Nothing to it really, just keep passing laws until it all stops or someone triggers the reset button.

We're all criminals, we're just not yet charged, tried and convicted.

Vick

 

[R.H. Lee]

law enforcement
personnel will be able to easily trace the ammunition
involved in a crime and have an avenue to pursue and
solve even the most difficult cases.

Right. Joe Gangbanger is gonna make a stop at Walmart, produce his driver's license when he buys the 'serialized' ammo, then go out and cap somebody with it.

Yeah, that'll be happenin'..............

It works here the way Gewehr98 says. The state pretends to regulate and we pretend to be regulated.

 

[Gung-Ho]

The intent of these laws is to fight and solve crime.

Your chidding right? The intent of these laws is to disarm law abiding citizens.