To Christian Gun Owners: Why do you disagree with the Amish position?

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I still feel the same as when I emailed the following comment to the "God Not Guns" BradyBunch offshoot:

"Show me the passage in the Bible that tells me that born-again Christians become BULLETPROOF, and I'll sell my guns!" :evil:

Like another poster already mentioned - there's a difference between cold-blooded murder, and killing in self defense.

It's like when I tried to convince a loved one that needing certian medicines did NOT make her a failure as a Christian. God provides things to us, it would be lazy and ungrateful to sit on our duffs and wait for Him to spoon-feed us everything!

Just like God provided the know-how for man to invent SSRI's and psychotherapy, He also provided the know-how that a polymer framed pistol COULD work...! :D

SO, as a Christian I have no problem carrying - and would have no problem USING - a gun for self defense.
 
And just for the record, I don't think the Amish should change their beleifs unless they truly WANT to. I do my thing, they do their thing, and it's all right with me.
 
The following is my answer to a similar question in a thread a couple of months ago. That thread was closed, even though it was a very civil discussion. Since this one is being allowed to continue, I will repost it here.

I will make one additional comment though. I find it odd as Christians that we see an interaction of sorts between us and God in every aspect of our lives but think that in the area of self defense God does not want us involved. For example, God provides for us, yet we go to work each day. We tithe to be involved financially in various ministries. We ask for travelling mercies, yet we try to drive defensively. Why then would we think when it comes to defense of life we should sit on the sideline? I just never could understand that attitude.

Of course I understand there are many that will not agree with the ideas in this post. This is simply an honest answer to the question that was asked.


Again, this is my quote from a previous thread:
Conservative Christian here. Occasionally I do run into someone who feels that firearm ownership and a willingness to use them if necessary in defense of life and limb are contrary to the Christian belief system, or any spiritual belief system for that matter. I find that this often is tied to what I call a ‘modern’ attitude toward God. By that I mean that over time, our society has grown to look at God in the “God is love” attitude only, as opposed to the scriptural description of God, which includes “God is love” but also that “God is holy and righteous and judges sin”. When God is viewed in the “God is love” attitude only, it is only a small step forward to view pacifism as the spiritual road to travel, so to speak. Therein lies the rub for many folks.

I personally don’t feel the need to reconcile firearm ownership, but those with the aforementioned attitude often do. Looking at the Bible in its entirety, you’ll see that there is no shortage of war, killing and a host of other reasons to have a means of self defense. Human nature has not really changed over the years, if anything it has gotten worse. Here are a couple of things I try to tell them.

The disciples were known to be armed even in the presence of Jesus. When Peter tried to defend Jesus when Jesus was being arrested, and sliced off an ear of the high priest’s servant Jesus did not reprimand him for being armed, or being armed in Jesus’ presence. He reprimanded Peter for getting in the way of God’s plan. If Jesus had a problem with going armed he did not mention it.

A scripture frequently quoted to support the idea that Christians should not go armed almost always includes the quote about “beating your swords into plowshares” which is actually part of Micah 4:3. This is in reference to the way the world will be after Jesus Christ returns and sets up his kingdom. It certainly does not apply to the way the world is now. (A humorous side note, this verse is supposedly on the United Nations building). A more accurate description of what we should be doing now is actually found in Luke 11:21 which says “When a strong man armed keepeth his palace, his goods are in peace.” Another is Luke 22:36 – “and he that hath no sword, let him sell his garment, and buy one.” You have to keep the scripture in proper perspective to history for it to be meaningful.

I like what the Bible commentator J. Vernon McGee says about this in his study of Micah – “Because He is not ruling in our day, we are not to beat our swords into plowshares; we are to keep our powder dry. This is not the time to disarm. Certainly everyone who wants peace would like to see our armaments cut back and our tax dollars going to something else, but as long as we are living in a big, bad world—not of make-believe but of reality—we need to be armed.” (But of course, J. Vernon was from Texas! )

Just my perspective on your question.
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Pilgrim,
right. Charles Martel stopped the Islamic advance at the Battle of Tours. The Knights of Europe who answered the Pope's call to the Crusades assisted the Othodox Eastern church against the Islamic advance and in trying to retake Jerusalem.



Card, SolaScriptura
I think you can disagree with a postion believing it to be wrong (and I DO think pacifism is wrong) but still understand it and even have respect for the said person or people who believe it in other areas and have common ground.

No, Sola, the issue of this thread is not essential to salvation. But it is an important issue. Modern Christians have this idea that "if it doesn't pertain to salvation then don't talk about it" or they will make fence riding statements like "Doctrine divides and Christ unites." Well, if believing in Jesus's sacrifice and going to heaven were all that mattered then the Bible wouldn't even be a full page thick. But as you know the Bible says a lot more than that. In a nutshell, it is a roadmap to guiding a fallen world back to the light. It is about how we live, how we view the world and how we are to live in the world. So it is important to discuss these issues. Whether you go to war or not or fight for your family or not I would say is a pretty critical issue.
 
As we know, there are two things assured in this life. Death and Taxes. I'm thinking that it ain't going to matter whether I meet death with a passive smile or decide to shoot at it with a .38, or a .500 Smith, death will prevail.
Then comes the scary part....the judgement. We all get to meet Jesus face to face as either savior or judge. I'm guessing that I will get some tough questions and have some lame answers. How will you stand? I know that Jesus protects children and idiots. He protected me while I was young , and he continues to protect me now. When I die, it will not be a surprise to Jesus. "What! NailGun is DEAD! How did this happened...Why was I not informed! No, we are in His hand and no one can snatch us away.
As for the Amish, I am not qualified to judge the validity of their beliefs. I do respect them and their beliefs. Jesus arose for them too. The US Constitution addresses religious freedom. My prayers go out to the families. NailGun.
 
Best response to this comes from a question I asked of an Australian Army chaplain many years ago. We were going bush and he was carrying a pistol. I've never forgotten it.

"I've been ordained by God to care for and minister to you lot, I cannot do the job God requires me to do if I'm dead."
 
Steletto mentioned.

1. It's supposed to be "thou shalt not murder", not "thou shalt not kill".

"Turn the other cheek" refers to a slap in the face. The Torah (aka Old Testament) actually states outright that it is an insult to God to allow yourself to die without putting up some kind of fight.

But the Torah is not the Christ way. It is the Jewish way.:uhoh:

I'm an "agnostic", by the way. But I like to keep track of this sort of stuff.

I changed it slightly.:what:

If we would think the way all the "amish" are, we are not going to be Christ way, we will be Islam way. Are they going to die, so the others can live?

HMMM:fire:

HQ:)

__________________
 
I doubt he loves the crackhead any less than you.
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True enough. But I believe He loves the crackhead's methods and practices less than my own.

To elaborate on my previous point, if God empowers and guides us, protects His people, and moves in mysterious ways, then why can't God's protection over me from evil be in the form of a Glock 27?

Okay I know I'm getting a little silly, but if He truly created man in His own image, then He must have a sense of humor too. :)
 
I was raised Catholic, I have many fundamentalist Christian friends and none of us have ever found anything in any bible that says that God means for people to be murdered.
 
I hear they make some pretty nice furniture...?
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Yeah they do! I live in central PA, and many furniture or other carpentry retailers use this as an advertising point, that their stuff is AMISH MADE. They will put that right out on their signs, because everybody knows that their carpentry skills are refined and highly advanced. Their abandonment of technology does NOT mean that they are dim, quite the contrary, they have developed highly advanced techniques in architecture and physical construction.

The impression of them as historical throwbacks can be very misleading - yes they rely on agriculture and won't use zippers, but the focus and intensiveness of their apprenticeship is a rare thing in today's world, and their skills have in some cases led them to accumulate surprising amounts of wealth. You just won't see their wealth on display through the typical corvette and rolex.

Totally off topic I know...sorry I was a sociology minor.
 
I myself plan to burn in Hell, so I really don't have a dog in this fight. But I felt compelled to comment on how impressed I am that this thread has stayed open for four pages.

This really must be the High Road.

Congratulations!
 
The question is backward. As the Amish occupy the minority position and are aberrant from the orthodox in other ways; the correct question is why they don't agree with the mainstream. Christians have generally held that there is a place for the use of force, though of course, we've varied widely on the specifics.

I'm not saying that truth is democratic, but I am saying that they should not be assumed to have the correct interpretation when they disagree with the vast majority of Christian and Jewish thought of the last few millenia.
 
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My congratulations to all who've posted responsibly and not let this thread degenerate into a religious diatribe. As long as it stays that way, the thread can run its course. Keep it up! :cool:
 
I can't disagree with the Amish position, nor can I agree with it. It's simply not my position.

Had this happened at a Catholic homeschool association, like my family belongs to, the result would have been the same. Most women are not prepared to defend against a person bent on murder. That being said, though, I think that, like women and children, pacifists deserve our protection.

I can take the position that I won't take another's life to protect my own, but I cannot in good conscience make that decision for my wife and children. They deserve my protection, even with deadly force if necessary. Furthermore, because they require my support for the things they need to live, I cannot in my current circumstances make the decision to not protect my own life. I owe it to them to preserve my life, even with deadly force if necessary.

If I were single and had no one depending on me, however, I might have the option of not defending myself, although I would retain the duty to defend others. If we look at St. Maximilian Kolbe, he gave his life willingly to save a man who had a family in a concentration camp, when the man did not have the means to protect himself or his family on his own. He exemplifies very well how one's duty plays out in relation to one's state in life and one's other duties, although it doesn't involve use of deadly force.

happybrew
 
But the Torah is not the Christ way. It is the Jewish way.
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That's not what Christ said.
Matthew 5.17
Do not think that I have come to abolish the Law or the Prophets; I have not come to abolish them but to fulfill them. (NIV)
 
Good stuff:

Koobuh said:
Two things leap to mind when self defense as a Christian comes up.

"Judge not, lest ye be judged."
In context this means that we will be judged by the standards we set for others' behavior. We can't set a higher standard for others than ourselves and expect to get away with it. By that logic, if I would not expect someone else to submit to evil, I am not bound to that expectation either.

"Love others as you love yourself."
Someone willing to kill others unjustly is a rabid dog and must be put down. Not with hatred or cruelty, but swiftness and compassion. I must think also of those that love me and the troubles they would experience if I were to submit to evil.
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This reminds me of an anecdote I read around the time of Hurricane Katrina

"A flood came and a man had to climb onto the roof of his house. As the waters rose a neighbor in a rowboat appeared, and told him to get in. "No," replied the man on the roof, "the Lord will save me." Then a firefighter appeared in a speedboat. "Climb in!" shouted the firefighter. "No," replied the man on the roof, "The Lord will save me." A helicopter appeared and the pilot shouted that he would lower a rope to the man on the roof. "No," replied the man on the roof, "the Lord will save me." Eventually the man drowned and went to heaven, where he asked God why He hadn't helped him. "I sent a neighbor, a firefighter, and helicopter," said God. "What more do you want?"

A lot of times God sends us the tools to do things ourselves. One can't just stand around and expect Him to do everything for you. A big part in living a life of faith is knowing the role you play. God may send others, or alter situations to help me in times of need. Other times I might be the instrument he uses to help another in need. He can just make everything perfect and do all the work Himself, but then what is the point? Why live? Why have faith at all?
 
Jesus did say "Those who live by the sword, die by the sword." But what does it mean to live by the sword? Carrying a sword, or using it to defend myself, doesn't mean that I am living by the sword. Having and using money doesn't mean that I live by it. Christ advised man to live "by every word that proceeds from the mouth of God." I can do that while still using money, guns, tractors and cell phones. But I don't have to live by them in the sense of seeing them as the ultimate preservers of my life and health.

Christ's rebuke to Peter's use of a sword in that case was a rebuke to his trust of his own swordsmanship, rather than a reliance on Jesus Christ. He did not trust Christ enough to let Him meet His arrest in His way. Placing one's ultimate faith in something other than God is the essence of sin.
 
Christ spoke of having "legions of angels" at His command, and did not tell his followers to get rid of swords He knew they had. That He did not use them, or encourage their use, was a matter of not interfering with the matter of saving souls; sometimes death is less important than standing up for what's right.
That said, using force to defend innocent life is axiomatic in scripture. Many actions and parables are recounted with the fundamental presumption that fighting back to save lives is a given. Passages depicting "a strong man protecting his house", "putting on the armor [weapons included] of God", "I bring not peace but a sword", etc. are all preposterous if weapons and use thereof is inherently evil.

Pacifists facilitate violence by doing nothing to stop it.
Letting the unsaved die at the hands of the wicked obviously does little to save those souls.
Per the recent Amish shootings: one well-placed shot or punch could have saved the lives of the children AND the attacker, giving all a chance to find Christ if they had not already. By being wilfully unarmed, and not physically interfering in what was obviously about to happen, several souls were lost.

(Remember: most people who are shot do live. We shoot/slash/strike to stop the attacker, not to kill him.)
 
Luke 11:21

21"When a strong man, fully armed, guards his own house, his possessions are undisturbed.
 
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