Today's 10mm ammo

Discussion in 'Handguns: General Discussion' started by crestoncowboy, Jul 23, 2022.

  1. crestoncowboy

    crestoncowboy Member

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    Just wanted to see what people are using for sd or carry now that new ammo is out there. I have several boxes of the 180 gr sig v crown on the way ill chrono and try out and post. Supposedly 180s at 1250 fron a 5 inch I believe. Ive read reviews on the hst and gold dots but havent found any factory to buy. Ive hand loaded both. Winchester has a new load as well. Several do.

    I've used thousands of rounds. Mostly handload but some Hornady custom ([email protected] 1265 [email protected] and [email protected]) and silvertip 175 GR @1200. I carried the winchesters for years before going to 40. I also used a few Norma 200s that chronoed over 1200 and some black talons.

    I have no intention of carrying my 10s and pretty much use handloads for deer. I hadn't bought any factory 10mm ammo in 10 years, maybe closer to 20. But Of the newer SD stuff what have you seen and heard about it.
     
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  2. CoalCrackerAl

    CoalCrackerAl Member

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    I have Hornady 180 grain XTP loaded with 11 grains of blue dot, According to the data it puts them at 1295 FPS. Note the blue dot loads need a magnum primer. Standard primers did not give a complete burn.
     
  3. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    Just as a point of reference, Underwood 40 S&W 155gr XTPs are rated at 1300fps, I clocked them at 1260fps. Basically the same bullet and velocity as Hornady custom 155gr.

    I don’t know what the best 10mm defense ammo is but there is the LuckyGunner tests to get some ideas.

    https://www.luckygunner.com/labs/10mm-auto-self-defense-ammo-ballistic-gel-tests/

    IMO, the results are not any better than 40S&W for defense purposes. Of course there was not an 10mm HST tested but that might’ve not been any better than the 40 HST which tested really well.
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2022
  4. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    For the high expansion but not lots of penetration option, these are in stock at Midway.

    06E32245-886C-485D-BD57-F4294BF7C2ED.jpeg
     
  5. crestoncowboy

    crestoncowboy Member

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    Yeah . I have 20 years worth of handloads ive worked up. My favorite is blue dot and 180 or 200 gr xtp for deer. But my loads go all the way down to cast loads over unique, which is what one of my progressive presses is set up for. Has been for years.

    I was just curious about the new stuff because up until a couple years ago the newest SD ammo for 10mm was 30 year old xtp Hornady custom or 30 year old silvertips. Or boutique ammo

    Ive read a lot of those. My hang up is that most of those 10mm sd ammo are down closer to our old issued 180 hst load in 40 that consistently chronoed right at 1000 in our full size Glocks. That's why I still carry a 27 loaded with 180 gr hst. Who bother with the comperatively massive "sub compact" G 29. Many years ago I did carry the 29 though. Still have my first one. Lol. Also on the test you posted, many of the ammo fell pretty short of advertised fps even though most are advertised with the Glock 20. The same gun and barrel length.

    Maybe the polygonal barrel vs marksman barrel made a difference. Idk. Or has Glock even used the new barrel in a 10mm.

    I realize that at [email protected] our 1250 you are much better for deer sized game than an SD cartridge. But only the couple new bonded factory rounds really gain anything on the 40. There are great rounds for hunting. I use the xtp or hard cast. The xtp is so deep penetrating and such a sorry expander that I think it's perfect in game and readily available as well. An added bonus is the lack of "petals" to lay you open when skinning game. Lol. In the lucky gunner testing, the old antiquated silvertip did fine.

    The new hst wasn't tested nor was the 200 gr v crown. The hst is advertised over 1100 for the 200 gr. At least it's getting respectable.

    I ordered from midway the other day but those didn't show in stock. Not much did except underwood and Buffalo bore and the 60 gr liberty round @ 2400 fps. Lol. . Natchez had the 180 v crown and little else. Ive not seen gold dot, critical duty or hst yet to buy.
     
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  6. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    Definitely in stock now and free shipping https://www.midwayusa.com/product/1016241689?pid=696713

    This is the only option I see that expands more than the best 40. But is showing to penetrate 12.5” is at the minimum.
     
  7. crestoncowboy

    crestoncowboy Member

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    Wonder if that is with a clothing barrier. Doesn't sound like a great choice to me really. It says 4 layers of cloth to simulate clothing. But one jean jacket is more resistant than 4 layers of poly or nylon based cloth. Then if the cloth is pulled tight its even more forgiving. Makes me wonder.

    Its certainly slow enough [email protected] claimed. Slower than the old 155 xtp. And 3x the price. Slower than HST in 40 too. Even a 147 grain 9mm in hst is 1000 fps. Non +p. I don't like +p. I feel like if you have to + your P then you should buy more gun lol
     
    Last edited: Jul 23, 2022
  8. Hartkopf

    Hartkopf Member

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    Yea 1080 is a dud but I guess the bullet couldn’t take muck more since it achieved full expansion to .800. BuffaloBore with 125gr Barnes bullets in 40 is in stock too and it goes 1300fps in a G23.
     
  9. .455_Hunter

    .455_Hunter Member

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    Full power (or near full power) 10mm is far more available now than when I got my 1006 in 2005ish timeframe.
     
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  10. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    I carry 200gr HST, which has a box velocity of 1130fps (presumably from a 5" barrel).

    https://general-cartridge.com/2020/08/11/federal-10mm-200gr-hst-in-vyse-ballistics-gel/

    Looks like good expansion. I've shot 5 of them offhand at 25 yards to check POI and make sure feeding and grouping was okay. They're pretty expensive these days though, and if prices don't come down, I'd be tempted to load up my own 180gr XTPs in future.

    One thing I really like about the 10mm is it offers enough potential that pushing it to the limit doesn't seem necessary for SD loads.
     
  11. crestoncowboy

    crestoncowboy Member

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    Yep. I got my first 10mm around 2001. Left over black talons or norma was about the only full power. Silvertips and then Hornady custom was also available.
     
  12. crestoncowboy

    crestoncowboy Member

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    That's the issue. Passing the 40s speed doesn't help for sd. Especially when they are using the same bullets.

    We always hear of "advancements in bullet design have made 9mm equal to the 40 or 45 of yesteryear" but the old silvertip from 30+year ago is right up there with anything for the 10? Lol. Idk. I'll definitely try the hst and gold dots when I see them locally.
     
  13. Lennyjoe

    Lennyjoe Member

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    I’m carrying Underwood 165’s in my XDM Elite 3.8. 6F4F4D91-1A5D-4338-873D-F4F30F53A3BC.jpeg

    Also use Underwood’s 220 gr Hardcast in my G20 when out in the bush
    EEE1755B-F7F6-4645-B8B1-C35DF85D6F0A.jpeg
     
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  14. JohnKSa

    JohnKSa Administrator Staff Member

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    The reason that there are so many 10mm SD loads that duplicate the .40S&W loadings out there is precisely because the .40S&W was designed to duplicate the downloaded 10mm that the FBI found was adequate for LE/SD purposes.

    The FBI's general theory of ammo is that if you can get between 12" and 18" of penetration with a round that will expand, that's all you need. At this point, there's no one with more credibility who disagrees with them so that's pretty much what the ammo designers go for when they make SD ammo. In a cartridge with lower energy levels, they have their work cut out for them. In rounds like the 10mm where you have all the energy you need, it's very easy. That's why the vintage 10mm loads are still considered to be very adequate but 9mm didn't meet the FBI's criteria until bullet design advancements helped it out a little.

    As to why you don't see a lot of 10mm SD ammo loaded really hot--that's because the conventional wisdom is that there's no need to pay any more in recoil/shot-to-shot recovery times than you need to in order to achieve the desired penetration/expansion. If you have two loads that both perform adequately based on the current mainstream theory of SD handgun ammo performance, the one with less recoil is generally considered to be more desirable.

    For those who want hotter than conventional SD rounds, the 10mm is really one of the best compromises in a semi-auto. It's basically the semi-auto equivalent of the .357Mag. You can shoot lighter loads in it if you don't want to pay the recoil penalty and the gun still works fine--or you can find real hot-rod loads if that's what you prefer.
     
  15. WrongHanded
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    WrongHanded Contributing Member

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    The one thing the typical ballistic gel testing overlooks, is wounding effect. When a hollow point bullet expands, it creates a larger frontal surface area to that bullet. All the tissue then pressurized in front of that bullet now has to go somewhere. It if forced out sideways off of the bullet's newly widened meplat. But velocity is a key factor to this, because it determine how much pressure is created on the bullet's meplat, which determines how far that tissue is then sprayed out laterally from the projectiles path.

    The expansion robs the projectile of energy and therefore velocity. And with that expanded nose, the terminal sectional density of the bullet is much lower, meaning it will lose velocity much more quickly (or in a shorter distance through a given medium). Which is why we typically see hollow points make a small wound track for the first couple inches of travel through gel, until they expand. Then they suddenly makes a massive wound track which quickly tapers down in a cone shape as velocity is rapidly retarded due to the very low terminal sectional density of the bullet. A parachute effect.

    As velocity reduces, the wound track also reduces, because as energy drops the pressure forming on the nose of the expanded bullet and subsequent tissue spray also reduce.

    We all know that when we shoot for Center Of Mass (or rather, the thoracic cavity), we're hoping to hit the heart, lungs, or major arteries and veins. We're hoping to cause rapid blood lose. Because reducing blood flow to the brain will result in incapacitation (which stops the threat). The majority of the thoracic cavity contains lungs. The lungs will cause less rapid blood lose than a hit to the heart or the major blood vessels attached to it. So wound size is more of a factor here.

    Yet, because we don't have a good way to measure wounding, we seem to ignore it and focus on penetration depth and expansion size of the projectile. Doing so fails to take into account the only factor that actually matters with a COM hit, which is how much potential rapid blood pressure lose can this bullet cause.

    Further more, the temporary cavity seen in high speed camera capture of gel tests is largely ignored, as we're told the temporary cavity of handgun projectiles is meaningless. But the force created by the temporary cavity in gel may have a very different effect to the permanent wounding damage in various human tissues than it does in the gel block. Many of us seem to forget that gel is not people, and pay no attention to the variation in temporary cavities in gel when comparing handgun ammunition. I'm not saying the temporary cavity is directly important, but I am saying that the elasticity of gel is not the same as living tissue, and that different organs also have different elasticity from one another. The energy imparted that causes the temporary cavity in gel (and the size of that cavity), may well be relevant to the amount permanent wounding possible in living tissues. But that's inconvenient, so we tend to ignore it.
     
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  16. Buckeye63

    Buckeye63 Member

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    Underwood 10mm 180gr Gold Dot or
    Underwood 10mm 200gr XTP
     
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  17. Trey Veston

    Trey Veston Member

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    My SA XD-M Elite OSP 3.8" loves 200 gr. Gold Dots with 12.5 gr. of Accurate #9 and will deliver 3/4" 5-shot groups at 25 yards. Averaging 1170 fps (actual chrono results) I am getting over 608 ft. lbs. of energy with amazing accuracy.
     
  18. balin

    balin Member

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    I carry Underwood. Differing loads depending on the situation.
     
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  19. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

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    9mm w/ 127gr +P+ Ranger Bonded is a must to get the job done right.
    A 10mm loaded with anything can do the job better.
     
  20. DR505

    DR505 Member

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    For 10mm I roll my own with AA9 or 800X (last canister as they don't make it now!).
     
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  21. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

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    Just saw Longshot on the shelf at my local shop...it is nearly ideal for high energy 10mm loads. Blue Dot, a near second.
     
  22. anothernewb

    anothernewb Member

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    10.5 of blue dot under a 180. but I'm almost out of BD.

    but I picked up loudshot and actually found a few cans of HS7 awhile back.
     
  23. Lennyjoe

    Lennyjoe Member

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    Im still sitting on 4 lbs of 800X but am working up Longshot and BE-86 loads with both 180's and 200's.
     
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  24. Necessary_Nutrient

    Necessary_Nutrient Member

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    Power Pistol and Longshot give me very similar results, both can push a 180 to around 1300 FPS (in a 5.25 SA XDm) with published load data
     
  25. Palladan44

    Palladan44 Member

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    Power pistol will likely be generating near maximum pressure limits around 1300fps where Longshot when loaded around the same velocity will generate far less pressures, allowing Longshot to be loaded into higher velocity ranges. 1,400fps is no problem with Longshot, and still accurate.
    Obviously this is some general speak here, variations will occur, but this is generally what ive gathered over the years.
     
    Last edited: Nov 16, 2022
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