Toddler Shot By Loaded Gun Put Out At Missouri Yard Sale

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I bought an 16 shot bolt action .22 made by savage at a garage sale.

First thing I did was check the chamber.

Paid 10 bucks, practiced my shade tree gunsmithing and sold it for $50

Garage sale guns appear from time to time but they are mostly junk.

I have heard of sickos loading weapons at gunshops, gun shows etc ..
for a prank or worse. The guy who pulled the trigger is unfortunately
exhibiting normal gun handling behavior from what I've seen. :(
 
In case any of you think this is a new phenomenon, here's a quote from Mark Twain in 1882:

Don't meddle with old unloaded firearms. They are the most deadly and unerring things that have ever been created by man. You don't have to take any pains at all with them; you don't have to have a rest, you don't have to have any sights on the gun, you don't have to take aim, even. No, you just pick out a relative and bang away, and you are sure to get him. A youth who can't hit a cathedral at thirty yards with a Gatling gun in three-quarters of an hour, can take up an old empty musket and bag his mother every time at a hundred.
 
I picked up a Mossberg 500A for $75 and a Marlin (Actually CtoC) Model 60 semiauto .22 for $32 at a recent garage sale. Saw a couple older fellows selling some shotguns and mil caliber rifles (7.62 and others) at a garage sale, but they were a little high priced for their condition.

The mossy needed a new bolt carrier pin that was about $20 after shipping ($7 before shipping). Works great as does the .22. Now I just need to find a deer rifle at a yard sale for pennies.:)
 
Guns At Yard Sales

My wife and I go to yard sales every weekend. This last Sat. I came across one where there were 6 Shot guns and about the same number of rifles.
This is very rare.
I didn't pick any up or buy any of them, I'm just not into long guns.



Gordon
 
I've at least heard of a couple of guns being sold at garage sales. Most people selling guns at a yard or garage sale Don't really know what they are selling around here. My range budy did happen to find a CR .22 lr of some sort at a garage sale for $5. this last sunday at the range his rifle was a big topic. You canh get good deals at garage sales but you must be extremely careful
 
It surprised me that the story mentions, “he pulled the triggerâ€.
Most stories would have said “and the gun just firedâ€.

So the story wouldn’t have been
Dumb guy does dumb thing.

It would have been bad gun does bad thing!
:banghead:
 
At 5:00 AM the newspaper delivery guy flags me down while I was on patrol. He gives me a sectioin of the yet to be delivered paper, listing garage sales. One sale lists a GLOCK pistol for $150.00. Sale starts at 9:00 AM and I am parked in front of the house at 7:15AM. House holder comes out and asks if I am the guy that called and offered $175.00. I said yes... And had a NIB with two high caps GLOCK 19.
 
The story should read

Toddler Shot WITH Loaded Gun Put Out At Missouri Yard Sale.

Or perhaps

Toddler Shot By Careless Idiot With Loaded Gun Put Out At Missouri Yard Sale."
 
Not only have I seen guns at yard sales...

I've missed them at more than a few!:(
Here in Vermont, we see them at antique/flea markets all the time...

The unofficial GOLDEN RULES OF FLEA MARKET FIREARMS FINDS:
Rule #1
Don't EVER touch, until you ask: "May I handle that weapon? Is it loaded?"
Rule #2
Imediately open the action and check the chamber/magazine.
Rule #3
Follow the four golden rules of gun safety.
Rule #4
Make sure that the weapon returns safely to the spot from which it came or that it leans against your shoulder with the barrel pointed straight up until it gets home.
I've been present more than once during a stressful period of:
"HEY! watch where you point that thing, you idiot!"
Or seen people who will rest the muzzle of a weapon on their toes while looking at something else...
It's always the same dumb rhetoric:
"It's not loaded."
"IT'S ALWAYS LOADED, TREAT IT THAT WAY!" is what I always yell at them.
I usually get dirty looks from people for being so "anal"
"It is better to be safe than to be sorry." I always say...

Here's a little nugget for those of you who don't think that a standard safety routine is that important...
I ALWAYS rack the action a few times before I "lay down" a weapon when I go shooting at the range...
The other day I was firing some loose ammo that I had rolling around in the bottom of my range bag through the AK-47...

Apparently one was a dud...

I figured I had emptied the mag and on the "I thought" last trigger pull, heard a click and assumed I was done...
Keeping the weapon in the follow-through position I racked the action back and out pops a round that had a pronounced dent in the primer.
I aimed at the target and pulled the trigger and continued to fire 2 more rounds from the remainder of the 75 round drum...

The first thing I do is to remove my finger from the trigger.
Then I open the action and leave it that way.
Next I remove the magazine/apply the safety... if it has one...
Then and only then do I disengage the firing line...

"Safety works for the benefit of us all"

-Sign at a construction site
 
I guess I now understand why our legal system is such a mess. A child gets hurt in a freak accident, and we're ready to hang the two people who made mistakes, even though it required a richoet for the child to be harmed.

We all know and follow the four rules, but we've all met people who don't handle guns with the proper level of paranoia and redundant safety percautions.

It isn't unreasonable to assume that a .22 you see for sale at a yard sale is unloaded. He should have checked the chamber, but he didn't. He aimed the gun in what he thought was a safe direction and tried out the trigger.

Not the ideal gun handling practice, but not really unreasonable either. He expected that the gun was empty, but didn't point it at anyone as a safety percaution. It was the fluke richochet thatallowed the child to be harmed.

He should have checked the chamber, but I don't see how he was criminally negligent, and agravated assault would require intent, which there obviously was none.

The gun owner was more negligent to set out a loaded gun. Criminally negligent? Apparently the local police don't think so.

A bullet richocheted off a barrel and pierced Danielle's left arm, elbow to wrist.

"(The doctor) said, 'I don't know how she lived through all of this. She's a miracle baby because it didn't hit any bone, nerves or anything,'" Natishia Weber recalled.

A bullet going from an elbow to the wrist can't go very deep without hitting bone, nerves, or anything important. It was likely a very painful wound that the child should never have had to suffer through, but since she was taken immediately to the hospital, I don't see how the wound was really life threatening.

To much hype in the article. Too much emotional over-reaction in the thread.
 
It isn't unreasonable to assume that a .22 you see for sale at a yard sale is unloaded

BS. It is completely unreasonable to assume any gun you didn't check the chamber on is unloaded. The only acceptable place for this ignorant dirt farmer to point that gun was at his own head. He should have checked the chamber. There is no acceptable alternative. A few inches in the wrong direction and that baby would be dead. Every time I read this, I think of my own little girl. :(

The gun owner was more negligent to set out a loaded gun

Dunno about more negligent, but he was just as responsible IMO.


Chris
 
I don't hand a gun i KNOW is loaded to someone w/o poppin the bolt/slide/whatever assuring myself that it is indeed unloaded and then showing THEM that its not loaded.

And that is w/ a gun i KNOW is unloaded.

I don't understand how anyone puts a gun out in a sale and confirms to themselves that its not loaded at the very least. If only to be sure they don't get shot by some idiot assuming a gun isn't loaded.

I check the chamber on every gun I ask to see at a gun store... even tho i know they don't tend to keep loaded firearms in every tom dick and harry's hands that ask to "see them"

This is what happens when people get too comfortable w/ themselves - the farmer i'm guessing was reasonably familiar w/ guns - and assumed no one would keep a loaded gun on a table that anyone (including a kid) could touch. Assumption is the mother of all ef ups... Shame it was the baby who won't learn from this lesson(too young to learn) that got hurt for it.

J/Tharg!
 
Keep in mind that people do inherited firearms and know next to nothing about them. These are the ones who try to sell them at yard sales and gun shows. And it never occurs to them that thier relivtive kept loaded guns around.

-Bill
 
This is a terrible thing to have happened, but when I read the thread title it sounded as though they put a shot toddler out for sale.

Predating even the incomparable Twain, Capt. Randolph Marcy wrote in some detail abt pioneers in wagon trains shooting themselves thru carelesss handling of guns as they put them in, and took them out of, their wagons in his guidebook for settlers "The Prairie Traveler". That was in 1859.
 
The farmer is definately negligent, as is the man who picked the weapon up. When I was becoming familiar with firearms, I learned that there is no such thing as an accidential discharge. There are only negligent discharges. and, as was said already, for aggrivated assault charges, there would have to be an intent to cause harm. Assault itself requires malice to hold up in court. For instance. if a guy was holding a weapon in a gunstore and as he brought it up to his shoulder, he ended up buttstroking the poor SOB behind him, even if he broke the guys nose, there was no malicious intent involved so assault wouldn't hold up in court. It was an unfortunate series of events and with the way its looking, no charges will be pressed. We can only hope that both the farmer and the guy who picked up the weapon and fired it without checking have learned a MAJOR lesson so this type of thing never happens again.
 
I'm going to risk the fury of Art's Grammaw here.

Flatrock, you say:
It isn't unreasonable to assume that a .22 you see for sale at a yard sale is unloaded.

Well, you do know what you do when you assume, don't you? You make an a$$ out of u(you) and me.

There is absolutely no excuse for either the individual who put a loaded gun on that table or for the individual who pulled the trigger. They both should have checked to ensure that the weapon was unloaded.

What if you and your family were at that yard sale, your child was standing there talking to other kids her age, someone picked up a rifle off the table, pulled the trigger (assuming afterall, it was unloaded), and shot your daughter? Would you feel that he wasn't negligent? Bull if you say you would feel that they were free of blame.

You never, ever, assume a gun is unloaded. No matter how many firearms you've handled in your lifetime. I, for one, have been into many gunshops and handled many guns. So far, I've never found one to be loaded. Using your logic, it would be safe for me to assume that the probability of me finding a loaded gun on the rack of a gunshop is pretty much nil. There may be a greater likelyhood of having a snowball fight in the Grand Canyon than finding a loaded gun on display in a gunshop, but that won't prevent this responsible adult from checking the status of EVERY gun I pick up. That's the responsible way to do things.

It only takes a second or two to check the status. It would take me a lifetime to get over the griff and mental anguish if I negligently killed, injured, or maimed someone because I was too lazy to check to see if a gun were loaded or not. Of course, I would probably never get over it.

Frank
 
"It isn't unreasonable to assume that a .22 you see for sale at a yard sale is unloaded."

I disagree with this statement so strongly I can barely see straight enough to type my response.

This incident is *exactly* the reason it can never be said enough: ALWAYS ASSUME A FIREARM IS LOADED. Yes, I'm shouting.

Tim
 
It also amazes me to find a loaded gun that everyone swears is unloaded. When I first met my in-laws, they knew I "collected guns". So, at first visit, I am handed a Marlin rimfire rifle (I think a Model 60). Reflexively, I work the action with the muzzle pointed down at the floor; at the same time, I hear, "It is unloaded". Sure enough, a live round is ejected from the action. Worse yet, I feel another round enter the chamber. So out comes the magazine follower -- and ten or so rounds of .22 LR. I work the action again, see the round eject and the empty chamber, and then say, "NOW it is unloaded!!". Here is the kicker, the in-law reply, "Well I was TOLD it was unloaded." Yeah, right.

Of course, I was once at a gun show, where loaded weapons are prohibited, where a child was killed with a shot fired from an unloaded revolver.
 
Let me clarify a bit on my earlier comments.

It would be unreasonable for me to pick up any gun and assume it's unloaded, even if I'm the one who set it down 10 minutes ago. I know better, and I do hold myself to a higher standard.

I hold anyone who's been properly trained to use firearms to a higher standard.

However, there are a lot of people out there who haven't had the benefit of being told the 4 rules over and over again. They try and be safe by using a little common sense, and what they know.

Without having taught oneself to ALWAYS assume a gun you're picking up is loaded, I can see how a reasonable person would assume that a gun for sale at a yard sale was unloaded, and be careless and fire the gun without checking the chamber first. His safety percaution was to point the gun in what he thought was a safe direction.

Do his actions amount to carelesness. Yes, because the danger involved with handling firearms requires redundant safety procedures.

Do his actions amount to criminal negligence. I don't know enough about the situation to be sure, but I'm leaning toward no.

I would never teach someone that if was ok to pull a trigger on a gun that they didn't check the chamber on. I would never do so myself. However, if I was on a jury that was determining if a person was criminally negligent, I would have to ask myself if he could have reasonably expected his action would cause harm.

The dishcharge of the rifle was negligent, but wounding the child was simply a freak accident.
 
Sue them both BIG TIME!!!!

That's after you file criminal complaint. Jail time is appropriate for both of them. If you operate a car in a careless manner and damage or kill someone, you could find yourself doing time. There is no reason for it not to apply to firearms.

But, alas, Sara's Million Toadies will probably try to get the childs mother to allow them to use her as their poster child (they may not even as - they might do it without asking -- see the latest issue of Coneiled Carry). And of course, they'll go after the manufacturer because that's where the money is and it will have an effect on shooting in general.
 
"...and tried out the trigger."

I'm trying to figger out how he knew it was cocked so he could try out the trigger. Maybe he saw a cocking indicator of some sort - no, he's obviously not that smart. When I try rifle triggers I always have to cock the gun first. My conclusion? He wasn't really trying out the trigger...he was just fooling around with the gun.

John
 
Jail time is appropriate for both of them. If you operate a car in a careless manner and damage or kill someone, you could find yourself doing time. There is no reason for it not to apply to firearms.

Ok, I'm playing devil's advocate a bit. Let's try this analogy.

You go to buy a used car from a private seller. The seller suggests you take a test drive. You don't know it, but he has a leak in a break line. You hop in, push in the clutch, start the car, take off the emergency brake and start to pull to the end of the driveway. As you approach the end of the driveway you start to apply the brakes, and you find no resistence and the pedal goes to the floor.

You drift out onto the main road into traffic and cause an accident in which others are injured. Are your actions criminally negligent? Should you be held accountable for not making sure the brakes worked before taking your test drive? A car is deadly if used as a weapon, and you are required to use one safely.

The situations aren't quite the same, but are very similar in that in both cases a quick, simple check could have prevented the accident (or negligent act).

It's great that we all agree that you should always treat a gun as loaded, and should teach others this important safety rule as well.

However, the act of having a loaded gun for sale at a yard sale is in itself very unreasonable, and totally unexpected. The farmer made an assumption that the seller didn't have a loaded gun for sale, but took the percaution of aiming the gun in a safe direction, probably as he'd been taught as a kid.

The reason that we have redundant safety rules is that people make mistakes. In this case it took a mistake by the gun owner, another by the farmer, and a fluke richochet for the child to be harmed.

The gun owner may very well have inherited the gun and not known it was loaded, and not really know how it worked.

If there isn't malice, or outright reckless behavior, I don't see justification for criminal charges, or a large civil settlement.

Between the farmer and the gun owner they should make sure the child's medical bills get paid.

I think that lawyers have somehow brainwashed people into believing that every time an accident happens, someone must be held accountable and taken for all their worth.

Whatever happend to guaging people's actions by their intentions, and while making sure people make proper ammends (paying the medical bills) not trying to destroy people finacially or put them in jail for long periods of time for what are honest accidents.

Are we going to get to the point where someone who isn't paying attention and runs a red light gets charged with a felony, and sued for their life's savings if a child gets a long gash in their arm that does not permanant damage as a result?
 
Very reasonable arguments FlatRock... and i agree w/ you.

As i said before - I check the chamber even in a gun store where i'm SURE they aren't in the habit of handing over loaded weapons for people to futz with.... doesn't mean it couldn't happen one time that there WAS a round in the chamber... and thus my check.

But thats ME. There are people who maybe weren't told by dad to do that at a very young age. Or people that just aren't thinking of what a bullet can DO if for some reason there is one in the chamber. (ever heard this one: well i took the magazine out!!! sheesh!!) Not all people think the same as you or me or whoever, and then there are those who put far too much faith in thier fellow man.

In this case i'm thinking that is the farmers problem - he put far too much faith in thinking that no idiot would put a loaded rifle on a table at a garage sale, and at the same time - making the what could have been fatal mistake of not checking himself.

J/Tharg!
 
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