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Tolerant Eutopia?

Discussion in 'Legal' started by DRZinn, Dec 3, 2004.

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  1. DRZinn

    DRZinn Member

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    <from my blog>

    Eur-topia

    It seems all is not rosy in socialist eutopia. In a soccer match between Spain and England, Spanish fans shouted monkey noises every time a black English player got near the ball. This was touched off by the Spanish coach's earlier refernce to a black player as "black s---."

    And in Belgium, the second-largest political party in Flanders has supported denials that the Holocaust ever occurred, and called for the expulsion of all Muslim immigrants from Belgium. It was recently commanded to disband by the Belgian Supreme Court, but its leader has announced his intention to simply change the name of the party and carry on business as usual.
     
  2. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Source for the claims that the holocaust never happened? As for calling for the expulsion of all Muslim immigrants, after what happened to Van Gogh they are likely correct.
     
  3. DRZinn

    DRZinn Member

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    If you mean my source for their claiming that the Holocaust never happened, it's a newsmagazine called The Week. And I can certainly understand their frustration, but that's not my point.
     
  4. Oleg Volk

    Oleg Volk Moderator Emeritus

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    A bit like expelling all Jews for the actions of one French Jew in 1938?
     
  5. nick89302

    nick89302 Member

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    I have heard it straight from the horse's mouth here. They say it's a Zionist conspiracy to make people empathize with the Jews.

    There are people here who seem to be completely removed from reality.
     
  6. Glock Glockler

    Glock Glockler Member

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    A bit like expelling all Jews for the actions of one French Jew in 1938?

    Oleg, do you really think the situations are equivalent? I never knew about there were hordes of Jews in Europe before WWII who were bent on radical Judaism (suing all non-Jews?). The actions of that French Jew in 1938 were an excuse for the Nazis to do what they wanted to all along, while the gelded Europeans today genuinely want to be all multicultural and tolerant even when they shouldn’t, and therefore welcome the opportunity to allow Muslims in. They want to be one big happy family, and would love to show up the US by how great they are because everyone lives so peacefully in Europe. The only problem is that it hasn’t worked out, the invited scores of people into it's house who have no intent on being peaceful, more accurately they want to take over and subjugate the Europeans.
     
  7. Sindawe

    Sindawe Member

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    Sorry Oleg

    I don't recall reading of roving gangs of Jewish youths raping non-jewish women in the 1930s. I don't recall reading of Rabbi's preaching a holy war againsts the Gentiles in the 1930s. I don't recall reading of calls for death of Jews who dared to publish fiction that was critical of the old testiment prophets in the 1930s.

    Hearsay, unless you can document the converstaion. Please provide a link to the published article or policy statement by the political party that supports your assertion. Citing the front page of a news site does not fit the criteria, any more than my telling you to look in Nature for support of my claims that caloric restricted diets lead to longer lifespans.
     
  8. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    I dont think we should confuse the anti-jewish activity of the 1930s with the anti-muslim activity of today.

    Although european jews historically did a poor job of integrating with society at large, they also didnt try to force their views upon others. Additionally, they were, as far as I can tell, entirely non-violent. Essentially, the jews did nothing to deserve being made the bogeyman of european politics. Obviously my opinion.

    The current problem with the muslims is that unlike the Jews, they actually are causing severe problems (crime, draining the welfare system, terrorism, trying to institute a muslim theocracy) and they are trying to force their host countries to conform to their imported cultural norms. The europeans are justifiably worried about the cultural impact and also about the rising tide of terrorism and violence that the muslims have brought with them. It seems to be fairly well understood in both europe and america that violence is something used as a last resort, not as a bargaining tactic. Murdering people that disagree with you is not civilized under any definition of the word.
     
  9. modifiedbrowning

    modifiedbrowning Member

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    There is actually a Belgian who posts on my Brothers blog site, who recently joined that party, the Voms Blok, or something similar. Apparently he was fed up with the party he had been in for a longtime. I hadn't heard about the denying the Holocaust bit, though. I'll have to ask next time I go to the blog. If anyone wants to check it out the address is www.Downeastblog.blogspot.com
     
  10. Chuck Dye

    Chuck Dye Member

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    Citing the behavior of soccer fans in fan mode, or anyone connected with pro soccer, as representative of all Europeans is rather like citing the behavior of U.S. sports pros and fans as representative of all Americans. It severely diminishes the credibility of any accompanying argument.
     
  11. beerslurpy

    beerslurpy member

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    Actually that is a very good point. Drunken sports fans are not known to be the most civil group of people lol riots.

    I was in the UK when the monkey hooting thing happened and I thought it was just a bunch of noise over nothing. So big ????ing deal if they made monkey noises. Just drop your pants and moon them or something.

    It not like they had giant signs saying "death to niggers" or something similarly _bad_. I wasnt even aware from the video that it was directed against the black players.
     
  12. DRZinn

    DRZinn Member

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    Oleg was replying to a post that used one incident as a supporting example:

    I'm not "citing" the site. I got it from the print version. I provided the link only to show that it is an actual news magazine. You don't have to believe me, and in fact I don't care of you don't. If I tried to cite supporting evidence for every assertion I ever made, I'd never be able to talk about anything more than basic science. Either you accept my assertion for the sake of argument, or you don't.

    In what way did I use that example to characterize all Europeans? I used it to show that Europe is not the ultra-tolerant place that leftists here like to portray it as. And they didn't taunt the team, they taunted just the black players. Imagine if something similar happened here, the worldwide outcry you'd hear. Or if an American coach of a pro soccer team publicly referred to a player on the the rival Mexican team as a f---ing beaner."
     
  13. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    Read some period literature. Worse things than this were written about the Jews all through Europe. That of course does not make it true. Hell, pick up any of a variety of Middle Eastern papers to read all sorts of horror stories about the Jews. Up to and including the idea that they kidnap little Arab children so that they can drink their blood for one festival or another*. Demonizing the chosen "Judas goat" ethnicity isnt exactly a new thing.

    (*this is not a made up example I read it myself in a hardcopy of an Egyptian newspaper purchased in Cairo, it was on PAGE ONE.)
     
  14. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    Europe has long been full of hatreds, whether ethnic or religious. In Germany, for instance, there have been numerous fusses about the Turks, who for Germany have come in to take low-end jobs, much as many of the Latins in the US.

    France has seen a rise in anti-Jewish nonsense, as well as having had serious political fusses over aliens in general.

    There's a fair number of idiots who deny that the Holocaust happened, in spite of the numerous paper documents (tons!) captured from the Nazis and the thousands of our GIs who saw the camps. (My father was involved in the liberation of the camp at Dortmund.) And, as kids at the end of WW II, we saw the newsreels when at the movies.

    Lots of hate groups. Generally, they don't have the common sense of a mouse in heat. They're so sorry that if they couldn't find a group to look down on, they'd commit suicide. These cretins are so low, they'd have to look up to see whale poop, and that's at the bottom of the ocean.

    Art
     
  15. iapetus

    iapetus Member

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    In Europe, a few Jews caused trouble in the 1930s.

    In the UK, a few Irishmen caused rather a lot of trouble in the 1960s-1990s.

    A few Muslims are causing rather more trouble now.

    None of those cases justified or justifies mass expulsion/ punishment of the entire ethnic/religious group.
     
  16. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    I wonder if that attitude will change when the muslim population reaches critical mass in Europe and they become a political force to be reckoned with in the various European nations.

    I'm betting that it will - but by then it'll be too darn late to matter.

    Welcome to the real world - its a whole lot different from the cuda, shuda world of many socialists and liberals.
     
  17. Cool Hand Luke 22:36

    Cool Hand Luke 22:36 member

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    My impression is that you're underestimating the extent of popular support for the rejectionist/jihadist school of thought amongst Muslims living in Europe.

    The situiation is depicted in the European press as one where many of the Mosques are controlled by radical Imams, who have the support of a sizeable percentage of the Muslim population.

    Even if it is only 10% support, and that's a very conservative number, that still constitutes millions of potential supporters of terrorism.
     
  18. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    Since the Holocaust has already been mentioned I think it bears mentioning that this was one argument used to support it. Not a road I like to see people going down again. We deal with problems when and if they become problems and we deal with them in an equitable and at least marginally moral manner, this is what makes America different from countries like Iraq.

    And since you mention that we should be solving this "problem" NOW I would like to know exactly what your solution is. Or have you thought that far ahead?
     
  19. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    c_yeager, there's a big difference between the 1930s and now: The Jews of Europe weren't activists about much of anything political, and were--as a group--very peaceful.

    Today, the Islamics in Europe not only are becoming ever more politically vocal about such things as Sharia, some members of that group are active terrorists.

    Art
     
  20. Dbl0Kevin

    Dbl0Kevin Member

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    Ya know political correctness is going to be the downfall of civilized nations I have determined. I can't believe people are actually comparing current day Islamic Fundamentalists to Jews or the Irish. Why can't we call a spade a spade anymore? Everyone is so afraid to tell it like it is that it won't be long before something goes really really wrong. You think these radicals aren't watching this and LOVING every minute of it?? If I was one of them I'd be laughin my butt off at how easy it is to manipulate these PC countries and gain my objective over time.

    Those of you saying it's only ONE muslim act, how many of you would say that the KKK or the Aryan Nation are really a bunch of good people with only a few bad apples that commit crimes?
     
  21. c_yeager

    c_yeager Member

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    Yes, and look where it got them. Maybe the Muslims in Europe would rather NOT have the opportunity to line up for the "showers".
     
  22. Art Eatman

    Art Eatman Administrator Staff Member

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    I'd bet that if there wasn't an effort on the part of some Islamics to get Sharia instituted in the parts of the country where they live, the hostility would be less or none. This is occurring in Canada as well as England and in some other European countries. If Islamics weren't becoming so well known to have a notable percentage of terrorists among them, the hostility would be less or none. Certainly no "official government" hostility. There will always be the basic human distrust--to some degree--of "otherness"; that's hardwired into our biology.

    Art
     
  23. HankB

    HankB Member

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    I think Art hit the nail on the head. Here in this country, much is made of the intolerance for Mormons 150 years ago in . . . oh, heck, was it Nauvoo? . . . whatever. IIRC what touched this off was the practice of allowing Mormons to be tried in ecclesiastic courts, rather than regular courts. There was a river nearby, and it turns out the river pirates learned that it paid to be a Mormon, if in name only, as Mormon courts were more lenient. This didn't set well with local non-Mormons, so trouble ensued. (Disclaimer: I know a few Mormons today, and they're fine people. Not looking to get into a religious debate here - just pointing out that when a group tries to set itself apart with "special" rules, or "special" treatment, it provokes anger.)
     
  24. Werewolf

    Werewolf Member

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    The USA is a secular nation. Islam and secularism don't get along well. As the muslim population in the USA grows the freedoms we enjoy now will work to their benefit and against ours. Eventually they will have enough political clout to change our laws and culture. That might take a 100 years or 200 years but it will happen. The PC crowd may think that's a perfectly acceptable scenario but I for one don't want my descendants growing up in a nation where muslim culture rules the roost.

    The solution is simple. Just don't let 'em in.

    Oh - by the way - you can take your politicly correct and condescending attitude and... well you know what you can do with it! :cuss:
     
  25. auschip

    auschip Member

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    *Except those from Mexico, and anyone who is a Muslim. We don't allow them. Now that we are limiting people in by Religion, how do we determine what someone believes. What about Americans already here who convert? Do we ship them out?
     
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