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Too many "No Guns" signs in AZ

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Jake L, Mar 11, 2013.

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  1. Jake L

    Jake L Member

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    I've been gearing up, training, and generally preparing to begin concealed carrying here in Arizona. I plan on getting an actual permit soon, as constitutional carry is a bit more restricted. But I've begun taking note of all the businesses with "No Guns Allowed" signs, theres a ton. As I read through Arizona's page on handgunlaw.us, it seems as if these signs actually carry the force of law for permit holders and constitutional carriers alike, and I will not be able to simply ignore them like you can in a few other states.

    Am I wrong to believe that in some states you can carry in legal locations regardless of signage unless specifically asked by the property owner to leave? (Schools, post offices, etc still off limits of course). If this is true, and this is not the case with Arizona, what consequences are there for carrying in an AZ business with a No Guns sign?

    It seems like these signs are on the entrances to around 85% or more of the businesses I enter... How is a person supposed to carry if 85% of businesses are legally gun free zones?
     
  2. 627PCFan

    627PCFan Member

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    AZ has force of Law. VA doesn't. I dont tend to shop in stores that are posted but if the wife drags me in.... I just cover up because I have the option

    "It seems like these signs are on the entrances to around 85% or more of the businesses I enter... How is a person supposed to carry if 85% of businesses are legally gun free zones? "

    Would you want to give them your money anyway?
     
  3. Browning

    Browning Member

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    Take note of the ones that don't and shop there.

    If they don't want my gun in there, then they don't want my business.
     
  4. Yo Mama

    Yo Mama Member

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    I'm in AZ, and I'd say it's more like 25 percent that have the stupid sign.

    There used to be a great business card with facts about CCW holders, and how they have gone through the class, background check, fingerprint clearance, then asks the owner how much they know about everyone else in their establishment.

    Just don't shop there, but let them know why.
     
  5. Frank Ettin

    Frank Ettin Moderator

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    I haven't been to Arizona in a couple of years, but I have spent a fair amount of time there. I've been mostly around Prescott and have visited Sierra Vista and Phoenix a bit.

    Anyway, I don't recall a lot of "no gun" signs. Have things changed? Or maybe I've just been lucky.
     
  6. Derek Zeanah

    Derek Zeanah System Administrator Staff Member

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    I visited Prescott once. Shot a lot of ammo there too.

    I'm curious as well - most of Prescott was pretty down with constitutional carry from what I could tell.
     
  7. baz

    baz Member

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    As for other states, the two I'm most familiar with are AR and TX. In AR the signs are controlling, and you can lose your license if you ignore them. In TX, the law is very specific as to what the sign must say, and how (like with 1" letters). Signs not strictly in that format (called "30.06" after the code section that governs) cannot be enforced. Also in TX, a business that derives more than 51% of revenues from on premises drinking has to post, and concealed carry is prohibited. I'm sure the details vary quite a bit from state to state.

    I traveled through Arizona last year, carrying on the basis of reciprocity for my AR permit, staying overnight two nights (Globe and Pinetop-Lakeside) and do not remember encountering any postings in the various shops and restaurants we went to.
     
  8. Calibre44

    Calibre44 Member

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    Forgive my naivety ... but why would a business want the deny access to a law abiding citizen when a criminal isn't going to abide by it anyway?
     
  9. Elessar

    Elessar Member

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    This is the crux of the argument against most gun control efforts.
     
  10. swalton1943

    swalton1943 Member

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    Here in granbury, texas, the local wallyworld had , for a while, a 'no concealed carry' sign. I protested the sign to the mgr, and complained to the regional manegment. The sign came down and the mgr was replaced. Lots of others also complained, and I protested to a lot of folks, and we got a result. I mentioned that lawfolks would carry off-duty, and criminals would ignore the sign. Be heard!!!!!
     
  11. ZeSpectre

    ZeSpectre Member

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    In Virginia a property can be posted "no firearms". However it carries no weight of law by itself. If you are "discovered" the property owner can ask you to leave. If you do not comply you can then be charged with trespass.

    As to the businesses with the "no guns" signs, some of the standard tactics are....
    1) Send a letter to the corporate headquarters (there are tons of sample letters you can find online). It can also be effective to save up some receipts from the businesses that you DO patronize and then include photocopies of those receipts to demonstrate the money the anti-rights policies are costing them.

    2) Give the business a "no guns no money" card and walk away
    Example one
    Example two

    3) Sometimes, when it's a small business, you can actually have a reasonable conversation with a manager/owner. Often they just put the sign up as a "knee jerk" reaction and haven't thought about the implications of the sign such as
    • The sign may ATTRACT criminals since it announces that the shop in question is a "soft target".
    • Mass shootings generally occur in places where firearms are banned.
    • Gun-free zones are premised on a lie: that murderers will follow rules.

    Stick by your beliefs (it won't be easy). I had several friends who got seriously annoyed that I wouldn't step foot into a movie theater (they're ALL posted around my area) right up until the "Batman" shooting. I knew one guy who still insisted that "couldn't happen here", I finally had to sever ties with that guy.
     
  12. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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    I haven't been to AZ for a couple years, but dad's spending some time there now to decide if that's where he'd like to retire. I'll be going for a visit at the end of the month. I really like that state - weird, but free.

    I'm hoping your 85% was an exaggeration (please say it ain't so) or isn't the norm in most cities.
     
  13. mbogo

    mbogo Member

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    Walk into these shops and put an armload or two of their pricier goods on the counter. As the cashier rings up the purchase, 'notice' the no guns sign on the door.

    Ask them why they have it. Then, tell them you will not shop in a store that does not respect your right to the means of self-defense.

    Repeat as often as you like, as it will only cost you time. Have your friends and family do it, too.

    That will assign a 'dollars lost' value to their decision to ban guns in their stores.

    mbogo
     
  14. Jake L

    Jake L Member

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    I guess 85% of businesses may be a bit exaggerated... But when looking at restaurants it seems pretty accurate. I seem to recall back when businesses serving alcohol where opened to ccw in 2009, there might have been a big campaign to get these signs up in restaurants and bars. So that might have something to do with it. All of the above suggestions to show some activism and sway policies seem pretty good.

    What experiences have you had with leaving your guns in the car when you encounter a location you need to enter but can't carry in? I've had my car broken into more than once, so I'm not too keen on leaving my gun in it.
     
  15. TrailWolf

    TrailWolf Member

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    Where do you live in AZ?

    I'm in Scottsdale - the liberal center other than Flag and Tucson - and I can count on 2 hands how many "no gun" signs I've seen, half of them being national chains like Whole Foods and Container Store... The other half are bars and strip clubs.

    When it comes down to it: concealed means concealed and if you don't notice a sign on the door, well then you dont notice it...
     
  16. Prophet

    Prophet Member

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    Pretty much the same in PA. Maybe it's the area, but the only places I've ever seen a "no guns" sign is at the recruiters office and similar gov't buildings.
     
  17. AJumbo

    AJumbo Member

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    If 85% of the businesses you enter have "No Guns" signs, you must spend a lot of time in bars...
     
  18. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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    I haven't had any issues, but 1 close call that converted me. Few years ago I would sometimes be lazy about re-arming after entering my vehicle when returning from places where CCW was prohibited. One such time I left the gun in the vehicle overnight. That night, most of the cars in my apartment building's lot were broken into. I guess my truck was spared because of it's age and stock stereo equipment. I don't leave a gun in the car anymore but if I do it's for as brief a time as I can and in a lockbox.

    If possible, I try to park somewhere I can see the vehicle from the inside. I also try to park in the the more public parts of the lot, like near the boulevard versus behind the dumpster out back.
     
  19. psyopspec

    psyopspec Member

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  20. smalls

    smalls Member

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    What terrible advice.

    The law says you have to adhere to what the sign says. So "concealed means concealed" does not apply here.

    Now, in MI, that sign means nothing, and you could carry right past it into whatever store, restaraunts, etc.
     
  21. jr_roosa

    jr_roosa Member

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    I noticed it a lot in AZ. Now I live in CO, and here it is a trespass charge to be in a posted business. On the other hand, I don't really see anywhere near as many signs as I saw in AZ.

    Interestingly, every Chipotle in AZ is posted, but none that I have seen in CO are, and the chain is based here.

    Weird.

    -J.
     
  22. dogrunner

    dogrunner Member

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    No force of law in Fla. That said, if discovered and asked to leave you must do so. Further, trespass after warning is a charge. Armed trespass is a felony........that includes trespass for hunting.
     
  23. BBQJOE

    BBQJOE Member

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    I am also in AZ, and have seen very few no gun signs.
    My bank doesn't have one, nor my grocery store.
    My pharmacy does, but I don't bother telling the lady at the counter that I carry.
    I'm not sure if my costco does or not. Never looked, never cared.

    If I'm going into a bar, I'm going to drink. Gun stays in car. Wife abstains, and drives. Actually she doesn't even drink, and always has a Judge in her purse, so I feel somewhat armed in a bar.

    My place is listed on a restaurant allowed to carry website somewhere, although I forget the name.
    I won't go as far as to put up a sign saying firearms allowed, but will offer a discount for people who have taken the time to take the course and become knowledgeable. I also have an NRA decal right by the register, so if there's ever any question...

    Although, I'm a little concerned on how lax AZ's permit process has become. I'm not sure if I approve of it or not.
     
  24. WardenWolf

    WardenWolf member

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    Arizona signs do NOT have force of law. They are a statement of policy. The only way to get in trouble is if they see your gun, ask you to leave, and you do not. Then it becomes trespassing. It is no different than if a store manager asks you to leave for any other reason; if you remain on any property after being told to leave by someone with authority, you are trespassing. So ignore the signs and go about your business. I lived in Arizona my entire life until I moved to Virginia 5 months ago, and have my Arizona CCW. You don't have to worry about the signs as long as you're carrying concealed.
     
  25. armoredman

    armoredman Member

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    Warden Wolf, you might want to read the back of your AZ CCW permit again...

    "This permit DOES NOT authorize you to carry a weapon into an establishment prohibiting weapons"

    Emphasis is in the original on the card. Now 13-3102 only covers public establishment/event, not private business,http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/13/03102.htm&Title=13&DocType=ARS



    ...but the one about open alcohol is there.

    Law,http://www.azleg.gov/FormatDocument.asp?inDoc=/ars/4/00229.htm&Title=4&DocType=ARS

    Yes, if you are "outed" and the person who lawfully controls the premises/business located therein tells you to beat feet, yes you can be trespassed and physically removed by law enforcement. Bad juju. I just stay out of posted businesses.
    BTW, Olive Garden restaurant in Casa Grande is NOT posted, pretty good chow. In fact...I am trying to remember where there IS a sig in CG...the local library puts one up and takes it down about every month or two, as they can't make up their minds. That IS a "public establishment".
     
    Last edited: Mar 13, 2013
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