Too much safety?

[AKElroy]

Originally Posted by InkEd
I can't remember if it was Eddie Eagle video or something else I saw as a kid that said:

"If you find a gun, don't touch it. Tell an adult."

The NRA will send Eddie Eagle material free of charge. I recently taught a group of 25 10-13 year old's, and they sent a DVD & posters for the classroom, and Booklets & stickers for each of the kids.

Your Eddie Eagle quote is close: :Stop! Don't Touch! Leave the area, Tell an adult!

It is not a shooting safety or skill program; it is exclusively a gun safety program.

 

[gdcpony]

I am sorry I have been gone too long. Kinda busy over here sometimes.

I think many of you have the impression I send my kids out armed and dangerous everyday. They do have access to their weapons. My pldest daughter has her .410 out today trying for a deer. She is in her own spot with my afore mentioned friend Ronnie about 100yds or so away with his son (who is younger). My younger daughter didn't want to go so she is at home baking (at last report an hour ago).

My son (4) is wondering around the house looking for me because it is my job to help mommy cook. The rifle racks in my kids' rooms contain only bb guns (I guess there are mice in our garage) and their bows. The rest are in the case. That is because they just stay cleaner there since the kids have no wish to use them without me there. Perfect for all of you I guess.

The actual point of this thread was not really kids or adults. It was more the attitude that many of these replies imply. A gun is sooooo dangerous. You must treat them as if they will jump out of your hand and shoot you. Safety must be sooooo stressed that you aren't allowed to think about anything else like....aiming or having fun. Wow. Why do we even own them?

I think a bit differently. Maybe it was in my upbringing. Any "weapon" (of which my most lethal is my bow) is a tool. You use it in this way to accomplish this task. I actually treat my chainsaws with more caution because I think they are more likely to injure me. Probably because I am not as experienced with them (5 years on saws and 20+ on weapons). If I use any tool wrong it could cause damage or harm. I don't use a torch to heat a fuel line junction that is tight. I don't use a bow to pick fruit from peoples' heads (the old apple shot). If I use anything appropriately, that will make it safe.

I hope the distinction is understood. I do not advocate just throwing anything to someone and letting them run hogwild with it. I just do not teach "safety" over "use." Such instruction has yet to fail me and I have taught MANY shooters children and adults.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...It was more the attitude that many of these replies imply. A gun is sooooo dangerous. You must treat them as if they will jump out of your hand and shoot you. Safety must be sooooo stressed that you aren't allowed to think about anything else like....aiming or having fun. Wow. Why do we even own them?...

Sorry, but I still think you're off base and that it is inappropriate to try to minimize that need for safety in connection with the handling of firearms.

Yes, in many ways a gun is "...soooo dangerous...." It projects destruction, injury and even death at a distance; and once it is discharged, nothing will call the bullet back. An unintentional discharge is completely unforgiving.

But no, we know that a gun won't jump out of our hands and shoot anyone. A gun fires only when the user does something to make it fire, and that is why safety is so important. Safety is up to the user.

And that doesn't mean we don't have fun with our guns. But we have fun because we have made the effort to learn to manage them safely. I suspect that nothing will take the fun out of a day's shooting quite as fast as to negligently shoot a friend.

As I wrote back in post 61

...There can certainly be too much safety when it's a matter of constricting our lives by removing sources of danger. But there can't be too much safety when it comes to learning how to use things and do things safely...

 

[gdcpony]

Sorry, but I still think you're off base and that it is inappropriate to try to minimize that need for safety in connection with the handling of firearms.

Yes, in many ways a gun is "...soooo dangerous...." It projects destruction, injury and even death at a distance; and once it is discharged, nothing will call the bullet back. An unintentional discharge is completely unforgiving.

But no, we know that a gun won't jump out of our hands and shoot anyone. A gun fires only when the user does something to make it fire, and that is why safety is so important. Safety is up to the user.

And that doesn't mean we don't have fun with our guns. But we have fun because we have made the effort to learn to manage them safely. I suspect that nothing will take the fun out of a day's shooting quite as fast as to negligently shoot a friend.

Originally Posted by fiddletown, post 61, emphasis added

...There can certainly be too much safety when it's a matter of constricting our lives by removing sources of danger. But there can't be too much safety when it comes to learning how to use things and do things safely...

As I wrote back in post 61

As you say learn to USE safely. It is the use that should be safe. That is different than safety being seperate from use. Proper use is safe use. You point a rifle at a target and not your friend because it is properly used to shoot targets and not friends. Amazing concept. Very similar to you drive on the street and not the sidewalk. (oh wait cars kill more than guns so bad example) How about- you use the saw on the tree/log not your leg because that is what it is used for.

See my point. Sure safe use is needed. But preaching safety by itself is like me telling you that getting wet is seperate from getting a shower and not part of it.

 

[Legionnaire]

gdcpony, I understand and agree with your main point. Our education system (such as it is), legislators (local and national), regulators, and lawyers have collectively "wussified" our basic sensibility. Kids are going out for the evening; we've been conditioned to say "Be safe," rather than "Have fun!"

You and I may differ on how we react to this knowledge (I don't leave my own guns generally accessible, much less my kids'), but I'm with you in principle. I trained my kids on gun safety and proper handling when they were very young. They learned the four rules, and helped me clean up after outings. When they showed interest, I got them involved. They were always welcome to ask, "Hey, can you show me ..." Well before they were teenagers, they had lost the fixating curiosity of the uninitiated. To them guns were tools to be used appropriately and with respect ... just like the table saw and router that can mess you up in the blink of an eye if you're not careful.

When you learn to do things safely, the emphasis should be on "do things!"

And I guess there is a gender thing here. I can remember my Mom saying to my brothers and me, "Oh, don't fight (wrestle); somebody is going to get hurt!" Whereas my Dad would say, "Take it outside, guys; I don't want you to break the furniture!" Too bad there aren't more Dad's involved in kids lives teaching them to LIVE with respect for themselves and others.

Safety is an important ingredient to be sure. It's why I taught hunter safety for many years. But the point is to HUNT!!

 

[Nushif]

Using slight of hand, I regularly load a snap cap into the "unloaded" gun used for instruction, and get a show of hands from the class on whether it is loaded. (Mag out of the gun, they just watched me clear it)

That would peeve me, tbh. Basically you're misdirecting them by clearing something and thus rendering it safe for your own use and then prove the procedure wrong?
Can't say I'd be cool with that if you pulled something like that if you hypothetically ever taught my Nugs a marksmanship class.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Sure safe use is needed. But preaching safety by itself is like me telling you that getting wet is seperate from getting a shower and not part of it.

I'm sorry, but I really can't understand what you're talking about. You give the overall impression of downplaying the importance of safety, and I find that unacceptable.

Who preaches safety by itself? We teach gun safety in the context of using guns, but we teach safety first -- continually emphasize the importance of safety when using a gun. We start our classes with a discussion of safety and the basic safety rules. When our students go through the various gun handling exercises that are part of the class, the instructor observes and continually reinforces safe handling rules. Each time the students go on break, and each time they return from a break, we recite the rules. And during live fire exercises the safety rules are further reinforced as the student handles and fires a variety of guns.

In IPSC, IDPA and Cowboy Action Shooting competition, the safety rules are emphasized and rigorously enforced.

In many contexts in the organized shooting sports, we are emphasizing safety. Safety always comes first. But we are still using and enjoying our guns.

So I still think that the fundamental premise of your first post is flawed. It's not a question of too much safety. It's a question of the wrong approach to safety -- emphasizing avoidance over mastery.

 

[Mountainman38]

That would peeve me, tbh. Basically you're misdirecting them by clearing something and thus rendering it safe for your own use and then prove the procedure wrong?
Can't say I'd be cool with that if you pulled something like that if you hypothetically ever taught my Nugs a marksmanship class.

While it is misdirecting, I have to agree that it proves a good point: all guns are to be treated as if they were loaded, all the time.

Even when I've cleared my gun and know there's nothing in it, I still certainly don't point it at anyone. I don't even let my kids point their toy guns at anyone, or pretend to shoot anyone -- get that basic rule down, and a lot of grief can be saved.

As Fiddletown said, nothing is going to take the fun out of a day of shooting like accidentally shooting a friend.

 

[therewolf]

I hear a lot of endless blather about "safety" and "security" from the media,too.

IMO, it commonly goes in one ear and out the other.

Not that I notice a lot of proper gun safety being demonstrated by the media, who somehow have managed to equate BBguns with Atom Bombs From Hell.

What I do see is a shocking amount of carelessness and ignored safety from actual gun handlers. It seems that no matter how much we emphasize gun safety, some people just don't seem to absorb all the fine points.

For example, I just watched an FBI instructor on youtube shooting himself in the foot, all the while bragging about how proficient he was with a .40 Glock.

 

[Nushif]

As Fiddletown said, nothing is going to take the fun out of a day of shooting like accidentally shooting a friend.

Keep this in mind though...

Nothing takes the fun out of shooting anytime, ever when you think the instrument in your hands is unpredictable and no amount of training or confidence in said training on your own end can make it safe for use.

By saying a gun is never, ever cleared even after clearing it, we have non-shooters believing they can go off randomly. Little stuff like that perpetuates the myth that guns are indeed never safe. And definitely does not win over new shooters who are just as nervous putting it in a safe after clearing it, as they are shooting it.

 

[dirtykid]

I've raised my kids with similar values although im confident they are capable of safely handling any weapon i give them,, ALL of our guns remain in our bedroom,,rifles and shotguns in steel-locker (only my AR has a clip in it) with key hidden nearby where everybody knows ,, my SP-101 sits next to the headboard on my side of the bed (out of obvious view) and mom's glock 26 sits in a between- the- matress holster on her side ,,, all 3-of my kids 12,14,17 know where they are and how to operate them safely,,,,,,, HOWEVER kids will be kids ,,, it's not my kids i would worry about,, more-so their friends who have'nt had proper training/experience,,, NOT TO MENTION THE SECURITY FACTOR,,,, we live in a 'good' part of town and i still would be devastated to come home to an empty or missing gun-safe,,,,much less having them laying around for the easy-pickin,,,

 

[Frank Ettin]

...What I do see is a shocking amount of carelessness and ignored safety from actual gun handlers. It seems that no matter how much we emphasize gun safety, some people just don't seem to absorb all the fine points...

Regrettably true. So does that mean that less emphasis on safety will improve matters?

And by-and-large, IME you'll see good proper gun handling by folks who have had good training, especially at places like Gunsite, Front Sight or Thunder Ranch, and/or who compete in IPSC or IDPA. And most of the lousy gun handling will be by folks who have had no or little formal training.

...Nothing takes the fun out of shooting anytime, ever when you think the instrument in your hands is unpredictable and no amount of training or confidence in said training on your own end can make it safe for use....

And I'm not aware of any decent instructor who fosters that sort of nonsense. In fact what the well and properly trained person learns is that the gun is not the safety issue. The user is responsible for being safe with the gun, and if something goes wrong it's not the gun; it's the user who is responsible. The gun is safe, so it's up to the user to be safe with it.

...By saying a gun is never, ever cleared even after clearing it, we have non-shooters believing they can go off randomly. Little stuff like that perpetuates the myth that guns are indeed never safe. And definitely does not win over new shooters who are just as nervous putting it in a safe after clearing it, as they are shooting it.

Not when safety is properly taught.

 

[Nushif]

Exactly!

Not when safety is properly taught.

Exactly! But pulling a move like sneaking a round into a gun you just *personally cleared* does nothing in making a student feel good about their training.

Call me odd, but when my instructor can't manage clearing a weapon and proving to me that it can be made safe, I won't ever trust a weapon. At least not if I was a impressionable little learner.

 

[Frank Ettin]

...Call me odd, but when my instructor can't manage clearing a weapon and proving to me that it can be made safe, I won't ever trust a weapon. At least not if I was a impressionable little learner.

Well you may be odd. But Jeff Cooper used to make the point that the Rule 1 was always properly stated, "All guns are always loaded." As John Schaefer puts it, "All firearms are loaded. - There are no exceptions. Don't pretend that this is true. Know that it is and handle all firearms accordingly. Do not believe it when someone says: "It isn't loaded." (http://www.frfrogspad.com/safety.htm )

In that article, Mr. Schaefer quotes John Farnam in part as follows:

"...The correct philosophical approach to serious firearms training is the "the condition doesn't matter" method. This was first articulated by Uncle Jeff in his four rules, but all four can all be rolled together in the universal admonition "DON'T DO STUPID THINGS WITH GUNS!" The "hot range" concept logically flows from this philosophical conclusion. Now, we handle all guns correctly, all the time. We don't have to "pretend" they're loaded. They ARE loaded, continuously, and all students need to become accustomed to it...."

As Colonel Cooper himself has put it:

"ALL GUNS ARE ALWAYS LOADED
The only exception to this occurs when one has a weapon in his hands and he has personally unloaded it for checking. As soon as he puts it down, Rule 1 applies again." (Jeff Cooper's Commentaries , pg. 8, Vol. 6, No. 2, 1998)

As further explained by Col. Cooper:

"...A major point of issue is Rule 1, "All guns are always loaded." There are people who insist that we cannot use this because it is not precisely true. Some guns are sometimes unloaded. These folks maintain that the rule should read that one should always treat all guns as if they were loaded. The trouble here is the "as if," which leads to the notion that the instrument at hand may actually not be loaded. This leads to disaster, yet we hear it all the time...."(Jeff Cooper's Commentaries , pg. 64, Vol. 11, No. 13, 2003)

The point, and the way we teach it, is that:

• If you see a gun, as far as you're concerned, it's loaded.
• If I have a gun in my hand, I know it's a loaded gun and conduct myself accordingly.
• What do I do with a loaded gun if I don't want it to be loaded? Why I clear it of course.
• The gun is only unloaded once I have personally cleared/checked it and it remains under my complete control.
• If the gun is out of my control, even for a moment, Rule 1 applies; it is a loaded gun; and I conduct myself accordingly.

Some of the corollaries to this are:

• One never trusts a gun to be unloaded unless and until he has personally properly checked/cleared it.
• If you tell me that the gun is unloaded, it won't matter to me, because unless I have properly checked it, I know it to be loaded.
• If you hand me a gun and tell me it's not loaded, it's nonetheless loaded as far as I'm concerned; and I will conduct myself accordingly. If I don't want it to be loaded, I will properly clear/check it myself.
• If the gun goes off and you didn't intend it to, don't bother to try to tell me that you didn't think it was loaded. You're supposed to know that it's loaded unless you have personally properly check/cleared it.

So it's not up to your instructor to "...manage clearing a weapon and proving to me that it can be made safe...." It's up to you to clear and check the weapon for yourself.

And you know, the raw beginners we teach don't really have a problem grasping all that. We show them what they need to know and what they need to do, and we, as instructors, scrupulously model the behavior. And pretty soon they're all properly attending to business.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

1000's of things can kill you if you misuse them or have an accident. Only Guns get the Bump rap.

 

[Frank Ettin]

1000's of things can kill you if you misuse them or have an accident. Only Guns get the Bump rap.

So does that mean we shouldn't be teaching people how to handle and use guns safely? Should we not care if the guy next to us at the range or with whom we're hunting is handling his gun in an unsafe manner?

And how is it a "bum rap"? Folks handling guns in an unsafe manner do in fact unintentionally hurt and kill other people, injure or kill themselves or damage property. True, it's not the guns. It's the users.

 

[Deltaboy1984]

No we need to teach every one how to safely do things. But I am tired of everything except guns being neglected when it comes to teaching safety. I will never forget how my Dad showed me the dangers of a Hi-lift jack if you didn't use it correctly.
Too many people focus only on Gun safety and not anything else in the house that can maim or kill you.

 

[Nushif]

Ok, first of all, even when my wife hands me a weapon and says it is clear (and she is as safe as I am with weaponry), I still check it. That is acceptable safety.

If my wife clears it in front of me, however, I can reasonably assume that she is competent enough to clear it. If she then handed it to me, and it wasn't clear, I would doubt her, not the gun.

If she were my instructor, I would have no confidence in the instructor's ability to clear a weapon. I am not at a learning session for a magic show lesson, I am there for a gun lesson.

Yes, guns are NEVER safe. But guns are not tricks. Sleight of hand does not figure into handling weapons. SAFETY is knowing your gun. Tricks don't allow you to know your gun, they lower your confidence in your weapon.

Anyone who doesn't have confidence in their gun is unsafe, and therefore a risk to the general public.

What you are proposing is that no one can clear or handle a gun safely. Your students will never be able to trust themselves to clear a weapon, and they will always be skittish around their gun. And in a pinch, that might prove deadly for them.

The point it that you should inspire confidence in those under your tutelage. If they are not confident, that is a reflection on you.

Only a confident person can defend themselves under pressure. I simply disagree with your method of teaching. It does not inspire confidence in either the pupil or the teacher.

That's all I'm saying. Safety, YES. Paranoia, NO. Enough said.

 

[Frank Ettin]

No we need to teach every one how to safely do things. But I am tired of everything except guns being neglected when it comes to teaching safety. I will never forget how my Dad showed me the dangers of a Hi-lift jack if you didn't use it correctly....

True enough. But this is a gun forum, so I guess it's natural that our discussion should focus on gun safety.

...What you are proposing is that no one can clear or handle a gun safely. Your students will never be able to trust themselves to clear a weapon, and they will always be skittish around their gun....

Balderdash. Our student learn to handle a gun safely and to do it consistently. In fact, they learn to be safe with loaded guns.

The reality is that most novices start out fundamentally afraid of guns. With a solid grounding in safe gun handling habits they come to realize that guns can be handled safely and they realize that they can learn to do it.

...I simply disagree with your method of teaching. It does not inspire confidence in either the pupil or the teacher....

And that's also nonsense. I and the folks I teach with ourselves learned from teachers like Jeff Cooper, the other instructors at Gunsite, Louis Awerbuck, Massad Ayoob and others of similar standing. And we teach doctrine learned from those sources. (BTW, if you'd trouble yourself to review this thread, you'd know that I'm not the guy that does the sleight of hand.)

 

[Nushif]

Glad I'm not your student then.

My point still stands. I'm not talking about you, I'm talking about Mr. Sleight of hand who decided that adding a round that wasn't there before is something that is good for new shooters. It isn't. It's something that is going to scare anyone in their right mind away from firearms. That is not what we are trying to do here. Subterfuge has no place in teaching, EVER.

The moment you are dishonest with your student, you have failed in your obligation as a teacher, and have lost their trust.