too tight extraction 30-30 reloads????

[Craigman]

I was wondering what is acceptable feel for extraction in developing 30-30 loads in a marlin 336 when going to max. factory loads seem to "fall out" and as I worked up, I started to "feel the pull" at about 1.5gn below max. It didnt seem to change as i hit max load.
So whats the trick to the feel?

 

[NCsmitty]

If you're certain your chamber is clean, it's possible that the listed max load, or even the 1.5gr lower load causing the sticking, may be the maximum in your particular rifle. Most manuals show start loads and recommend working up just for the reason that you are experiencing. Not all rifles react the same.

What load are you having trouble with?



NCsmitty

 

[blarby]

Well, I load a lot of .30-30 for a marlin 336, so I'll offer my 2 cents

I found that my extraction varied more based on my case prep than it did on my loading, per se.

Factory loads do tend to extract a lot easier, I might venture to say that this has something to do with the generic specifications factory brass is drawn and cut to...varying based on manufacturer. However I think it has more to do with virgin brass specs than anything else.

You will notice on some of your brass after the first firing that there is a little bit of growth near the base of the case ( i'd say about a half a cm) from the rim. Easiest to see when they are dirty from firing. This is more than likely due to the working of the brass from pressure, and is the only thing that I can see that contributes to the firmer extraction.


Trying ( against advice ) to just neck resize and reload under the premise of lengthening the brass life produced a lot of shells that were very difficult to extract. Might be one of the reasons they advise full length resizing, amongst others.....

This slight bulging does resize out in a full length resize.


I found that once I prepped my once fired brass to specs ( including full length resizing ) and reloaded them with between 30.5 and 32 grains of h4895 they did indeed extract a little stiffer, but not in a way that concerned me.

Hope some of this helps.

 

[Craigman]

well I was working up loads using the new Leverevolution powder and started from 35gn to 38.5gn max. i wasnt really going for accuracy today, i was just checking to see what the cases would be doing and getting Chrony FPS as i went up in charge. (it was 30F with 20mph crosswind gusts=not comfortable)

I fired a couple win and a couple rem over the chrony to get a baseline and shot 3 round groups up in .5gn increments. As i got toward the top, about 2gn below max, I could feel the extraction get stiffer.

Ive never Loaded for lever before so i was making mental notes. So I guess i really didn't have problems per say, just more of a question of what to look for.

I did notice the primers were pretty far popped out at high charges, but the factory loads popped also, just not as much. Not like my bolt guns, where they just flatten out. Is this a normal characteristic as well?

BTW my brass was super clean, and chamber was clean and i only fired 20 or so shots today. the last ones being the max loads.

36.5gn started getting sticky, but it didn't seem to be getting any worse as i went up

 

[blarby]

I've never used that lever powder before, its on my list of things to do

As for the primers popping... thats not something i've experienced.

Sounds like this might be a very "exciting" powder, and something to be danced with carefully.

A side note on the primer issue though :

I have had the chance to fire some of the premade leverevolution ammo, and the hornady brass for those rounds has the tightest pockets of anything of anything ive ever encountered in any round.

After spending about 20 minutes trying to primer pocket uniform them using my RCBS trim mate, I set them aside- they are just too tight to be worked practically. I got three done in that time frame.... it ( the uniformer) grabs so tight its impossible to work.

I wonder if thats the reason ( the primers popping out) that they made the factory brass pockets so tight, to eliminate that problem.

Sounds like thats a violent powder... i'd be careful near the max end !

 

[Craigman]

I'll shoot for grouping next time and be more careful. I can give my chrony groups though

all 150gn

win was 2100fps

rem c/l was 2200fps

my start of 35gn got 2200fps

and end (max) 38.5gn was 2375fps tops

I only shot 3 round groups and dont have all my data in front of me, so its not very conclusive.

I seems the highest charge was only 75fps above 36.5gn though

Marlin 336 i think its a 22" barrel (or 24"?) 1951 model

 

[788Ham]

Might I ask a question here? You're shooting 2375 fps with 150 grainers? Sounds kind of stout to me, especially with an older rifle, maybe this is why the primers are backing out! To each his own, a side bar : My Pop was reloading for my brothers Savage 99, .243 years back. He thought just a couple 10/ths of a grain wouldn't hurt anything, these .243's are supposed to shoot hot! Well, before it was over-with, he'd sprung the breech on that rifle, only good for parts! Just a little sage advice!

 

[MarkDozier]

it may be your bullet choice. If it is a longer setting bullet you may be creating overpressure for the case.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I just picked up 2 lbs of Leverevolution powder Saturday but haven't loaded any yet. Sorry I couldn't jump into the problem with you but I hope to load up a few rounds and fire them soon.

788Ham,
It's the powder that gives you the added velocity. It's supposed to do that without adding extra pressure.

BTW, Hodgdon has more than 1 Leverevolution powder blend but luckily for the 30-30 loaders like me, the one they are marketing is the 30-30 blend. You might not get as much additional velocity in the 35 Rem or some of the other calibers Hornady is loading under the Leverevolution name.

 

[243winxb]

Hodgdon lists velocity for a Barrel Length of 24" . Shorter barrels would be about 35fps less per inch. When the brass no longer springs back after firing, you get hard extraction. This is a high pressure sign. Your Marlin may be a stronger action than my old Win.M94. The T/C contender loaded on the high end with no problems. I dont think the brass will come apart at the pressures the 30-30 works under, unless you have a very loose/sloppy chamber. After checking my notes, i was loading 2.0gr over what Hodgdons rifle data lists on there website, using a different powder in the T/C . The 10"bbl was pushing a 150 Sierra at almost 2000 fps average. Check the Hodgdon Pistol Data 2 loads there @ 2100fps from a 14" barrel. Not with the powder i used.

 

[GooseGestapo]

Primer set back on the .30/30 is most usually a sign of excessive head space as a result of "generous" SAAMI spec's on factory ammo/chamber and over-sizing of reloaded ammo.

With the leveractions and the .30/30 cartridge, the backed out primers are telling you something different than with other cartridges and bolt actions.

What is happening is that you are oversizing your brass. When the rifle is fired, the firing pin hits the primer/case shoving it to the front of the chamber. The primer fires and ignites the powder. The case expands against the chamber walls and holds it in place. The primer is then ejected from the case against the bolt face. The lower pressures of the .30/30 cartridge and the thinner case walls first don't allow the case to be stretched against the bolt face reseating the primer and resulting in a "flattened" appearing primer. It is also causing the case to be tighly held against the chamber walls resulting in the "sticky" extraction.

I typically "fire-form" my .30/30 brass by on the first loading, load it with a cast bullet and a 10.0gr load of unique with the bullet seated "long" and uncrimped so that the bullet is seated upon chambering and the case is held against the bolt face. This results in the shoulder of the fired case being formed to the chamber. Subsequent resizing is to just barely "bump" the shoulder and size the mid to head section of the case to allow easy chambering.

If you are just screwing the sizer die down to the shell holder and backing off 1/4turn, you are way-way over sizing the cases and inducing excessive headspace.

That is the problem I almost always see with the once-fired brass I pick up at the range.

re: the original question-sticky extraction. For me, as long as it is only a slight, light resistance, it tells me that I'm at the top of the "envelope" for acceptable pressures given the powder/bulllet/action limitations. I've been using RL15 at listed maximum (the old one, 36.0gr with a 150gr bullet) for 2,400fps for several years now, so the LeverEvolution powder is no real revelation). When the action springs open on firing, you have definitely passed the acceptable point. A light stickiness indicates you need to stop.....maybe even back off a little.

It's the bullet that does the work. A few extra fps isn't worth excessive wear on the action. I use the Remington CorLokts and at nominal velocities (2,100-2,300fps) they work just as intended/needed for the .30/30 and .35Rem. No need to hyper-velocity load them. I can't get excited over the FTX's in the .30/30 and .35Rem. or the LeverEvolution powder...

 

[Walkalong]

I have adjusted the sizer for my .30-30 to just keep the shoulder where it was after two firings with medium type loads. I am not really pushing the shoulder back at all, just keeping it at bay so to speak. The loaded rounds fall into the chamber, but after firing the shoulders have been within .002 or less of where they started.

When working up the primers were backed out a hair with the light loads but when the charge got close to or at max the primers stayed seated fully. I would expect this.

 

[ssyoumans]

A side note on the primer issue though :

I have had the chance to fire some of the premade leverevolution ammo, and the hornady brass for those rounds has the tightest pockets of anything of anything ive ever encountered in any round.

After spending about 20 minutes trying to primer pocket uniform them using my RCBS trim mate, I set them aside- they are just too tight to be worked practically.

I wonder if thats the reason ( the primers popping out) that they made the factory brass pockets so tight, to eliminate that problem.
!

I've had the same experience with the Hornady brass. Mine sits in a separate bag, not sure how to get it useable.

I too picked up some LeveRevolution powder but haven't gotten around trying it yet. I need to order a longer seating stem for my Lee seater. I couldn't seat them to proper depth without having to over roll crimp because the seater was screwed all the way down and the only way to seat deeper was to screw the die in further causing excessive crimp. I called Lee, happy to sell ya another seater for $8 plus shipping.

I hope the LeveRevolution powder lives up to the hype as it and that bullet was going to be my deer round.

Instead, I'm tinkering around with some MBC Lead .311 bullets for a while, long time till deer season

 

[rcmodel]

+1
Primers backing out and staying backed out are a sign of low pressure, not high pressure.

It is common in 30-30 factory loads because they are loaded to very low pressure in differance to all the really old guns still around.

If you had high enough pressure to stretch the case, it would stretch tight against the bolt face and re-seat the backed out primer.

I agree with Walkalong on sizing.
Don't rely on the case rim to set the headspace for you.

Use the fired brass and adjust the sizing die so you don't push the shoulder back as far.
From then on, you are headspacing off the shoulder, not the case rim.

rc

 

[popper]

I haven't had any problems with Hornady primer pockets in 30-30 or 308 ME.
Haven't even had problems with primers backing out or hard extraction. I use hornady die and seater plug is almost all the way down. FTX shoots about the same as sierra 170 gr. RN.
Keep us informed about your MBC tests. You plan to run them slow or fast with gas-checks?

 

[Jech]

I'm very surprised no one has mentioned OAL in all of this. Unless I missed it, what is your OAL for these loads?

I almost fell victim to dangerously high pressure with some gas checked bullets caused by an OAL significantly under the bullet's design at 2.432"...they were intended to be used at ~2.481-2.500". My W748 charge would have been appropriate for the longer OAL and safely produced velocities in the 2200fps range but instead it sang over my chronograph at 2377fps! It only took one shot to realize the error! The fired case was difficult to extract, primer was fairly flattened and very cratered...all the rest of the rounds were promptly disassembled.

 

[NCsmitty]

I'm very surprised no one has mentioned OAL in all of this.

Good point, Jech, but I reread the OP's posts and he didn't mention his choice of projectiles. I was guessing he was using a jacketed not cast bullet by the max loads that he was using. Jacketed bullets for the 30-30 just need a crimp in the cannelure for the good COAL.
Maybe he'll tell us what he was using, or not.



NCsmitty

 

[Craigman]

Ill have to check the OAL tomorrow. but I'm sure it was within spec.

I was using RP brass trimmed with the Lee trim tool and a Rem 150gn corelokt crimped with Lee Factory Crimp die, on the middle of the crimp groove.

All rounds fired had primers somewhat popped out. Even the factory win and corelokt......Not alot, but was noticeable to me because i usually load for bolt action and have never seen this.

So, I'll do as RC and goose say and adjust dies and charges accordingly and give it another go.

I guess i wasn't impressed with this powder if It only gets 100fps more before the "sticky" starts

I measured the brass as good as i could today (with primers above flush) I measured the edges of a few cases of various charges, around the outside of the high primers, and it didn't stretch at all from where i sized and trimmed it to.
So are they once fired/sized and should i be using them as gauges for future sizing and measuring?