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Took the Highroad at Quiznos

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics and Training' started by ChrisVV, Oct 1, 2008.

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  1. ChrisVV

    ChrisVV Member

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    At the time they ordered their sandwiches my mind was on my sprinklers at the house and my huge water bill last month.
     
  2. sacp81170a

    sacp81170a Member

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    Nope, no threat there, no brandishing, you did alright. I think this little incident might also be because even dummies like your two guys are dimly aware in whatever they have that passes for brains that law abiding citizens can carry concealed firearms. That might have given them enough pause to back down. It sounds like these guys were two-bit enough that they weren't going to push anything anyway, but letting them get away with it this time would only embolden them to try again. Good job for upholding common decency. ;)
     
  3. jahwarrior

    jahwarrior Member

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    the only thing i would have done differently is the "getting shot" part. not because of impropriety, because you tipped your hand. if they were packing too, it might have escalated, and in court, it might seem like you were trying to intimidate them. otherwise, you've done a man's job, sir.
     
  4. Code3GT

    Code3GT Member

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    I will add another kudo to you sir, and if THR has gold stickers, you'd get one for keeping your cool, eing confident, and doing the right thing.

    One question I have though, what was the other patrons' and the employee's reactions? Just curious
     
  5. Treo

    Treo member

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    I might have done the conversation a little differently, but other than that I think you did ok. I wouldn’t have used the word stealing at all; I’d have said something like “ Hey Dude you forgot to pay for the cookies.” And if he said anything about how he wasn’t going to steal them I’d have said “I’m sure you weren’t it just seemed like you might have forgot.”

    My point is not so much the exact words as the idea that I’d have kept it low key and non confrontational to the best of my ability. That way if it did come to a shooting I presented myself as doing everything in my power not to escalate the situation.

    That said, two on one and my hands are full (assuming sandwich bag in one hand drink in the other) I’d have thought twice before walking out the door.
     
  6. Loosedhorse

    Loosedhorse member

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    You did fine, as long as you are willing to leave without your sandwich, or take a punch in the nose for your trouble.

    I would argue that the law (I'm saying the way it IS, not the way I want it to be) expects you to be held to a higher standard than someone who is unarmed: you may be the only one who knows that a confrontation with you could get lethal real fast, and you are therefore expected to exercise more than "regular" caution in staying out of confrontations.

    I might have said (smiling), "Hey, buddy, don't forget about the cookies--I'm sure you meant to pay for them." If he then said something about beating people up, I would have said, (loudly--I want witnesses), "Hey, man--why are you talking about BEATING ME UP. I don't want any trouble. I think we should CALL THE POLICE. And I'm leaving." Then let him explain to all the turned heads what he meant. And you leave.

    The way you've portrayed it, some witness (who only saw and heard half of what was going on--that would qualify him as an attentive witness) later says, "Yeah, they got into some beef about something, one thing leads to another, and so one guy hauls off and slugs the other right in the nose." No mention that it was the other guy's fault, just two guys having a beef (and one of them should know better).

    So, now your sitting on the ground with a bloody nose. What do you do? Stay down, tell the lady you need an ambulance and the police. IF YOU DO ANYTHING ELSE, you will have been seen to have prolonged a confrontation that you could have disengaged from, and any subequent self-defense claim is at REAL risk.

    You're not the sandwich shop's antitheft system. Make a comment, and if it's getting above your pay-grade, disengage.

    A few years ago, I was in a lunch line, and I got a hamburger--the guy in front of me got a cheeseburger, a real luxury item costing $.50 more. We get to the register, the girl looks at the top his sandwich, sees a bun. "Hamburger?" After an almost imperceptible pause, he says, "Yup," pays, and leaves. As she rings me up, I said to her, "Just so you know, that last guy had a cheeseburger, and the price of honor these days is $.50."

    She smiled.
     
  7. ChrisVV

    ChrisVV Member

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    First off, Everyone pointing out what I should or could have said differently, I agree with. I could have been more low key.

    Honestly I wasn't to worried about it.
     
  8. hankdatank1362

    hankdatank1362 Member

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    "A couple cookies aren't worth anyone getting shot over."

    Man, that is gold! I hope you winked at him when you said it.
     
  9. wyocarp

    wyocarp Member

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    I think everything was just fine. You didn't say they were going to get shot. You just said it wasn't worth getting shot over and that statement covered either them or you.

    I'm not the best at political correctness. A few years back in Colo. Springs, CO, two guys were found outside of their vehicles. Both of them dead. It was assumed that they had an altercation and each of them stopped, got out of their vehicles, both of them having guns, shot each other and died right there.
     
  10. MDMadrid

    MDMadrid Member

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    I think that you did just fine. The way you put it was ok.

    These kinds of comments and this kind of mentality is what is wrong with a good many Americans today. Every one is selfish..."as long as it is not happening to me then...who cares" is the attitude in many people today. It is not the money, but it is the principle of taking from someone else...STEALING. I ask the person who posted that comment above..."what would be worth it?" Someone said it well..."you got to stand for something or you will fall for everything. You got to be your own man not a puppet on a string..." (yes I know it is a country song:neener:)

    I am not saying that he should have drawn down and shot the guy, but calling the guy out and making him pay for the cookies was a good thing. Just think if everyone else in America would stand up to those who would do us wrong, to those who hurt us and the ones we love, to those who take advantage of people; how much better of a nation would we be? Our founding fathers disregarded their lives to give their families and friends a better life knowing that their signatures on the Declaration of Independence could and would have meant death to them...but they still did it...why??...because they stood for Principles!

    To the op...well done...if you were closer to me I would give you one of my best cigars!:)
     
  11. CoLJ

    CoLJ Member

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    Well played sir!

    If there was any mistake in what you said during the encounter... you should have told her they ate four.
     
  12. hqmhqm

    hqmhqm Member

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    That is a very good approach. Even if someone is acting like a creep, giving them a way to back down without losing face is a good strategy.
    That is making your point in a non-escalating way. Accusing someone of stealing immediately puts them on the defensive, while appealing to their better nature is worth a shot, though it might turn out they don't have one.
     
  13. Treo

    Treo member

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    Are you sure about this do you have an facts or a cite?
     
  14. akodo

    akodo Member

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    I think even though you were armed, your actions were commendable.

    What CCWers have to worry about is if the guys woudl refuse to pay and instead dash off, then of course you do not intervine.

    Also, you didn't threaten them in return once they made a round-about threat to you, and your comments at the car were in general de-esclelationary, if that is even a word.

    Good job
     
  15. akodo

    akodo Member

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    And I don't think it ever would, unless the CCWer was going to shoot them in the back as they fled with unpaid for cookies in their bellies.

    Lets say the guys get all angry at being called out, and attemt to assault the CCWer at the bronco. Now, deadly force isn't about the cookies, it is about the tire-iron swinging at your head.
     
  16. RoadkingLarry

    RoadkingLarry Member

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    If more people stood up at times like that there would soon be less times like that.
     
  17. camslam

    camslam Member

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    First off: WELL DONE CHRIS!

    Second: I'm shocked the usual gang of suspects that take the following position haven't been out in force on this one.

    Usually anytime someone hints at or actually participates in a situation like this, that may or may not even involve a gun, we get a chorus of some of the following:

    -You should not have been in that position in the first place.
    -Perhaps you should have not left your home that morning.
    -Keep your mouth shut and just call 911.
    -Keep your mouth shut, it is the company and cashiers problem, not yours.
    -The $1.50 for the cookies isn't worth a fight, brandishing, or shooting. (But they can never answer what price would justify that).
    -You should have had the 6th sense of awareness so that you would have known long before you even got into the Quizno's that there might be a couple of bad characters in their trying to steal, and thus you could become involved.
    -You should have employed some form of verbal judo, de-escalation, or jedi mind trick to avoid them even becoming confrontational and waiting at your vehicle.
    -You shouldn't have even gone out of the store, you should have run out the back or called the police while sitting in a corner remaining calm.

    Obviously some of this is tongue in cheek, but a lot of it is the norm of what we read in Strategy and Tactics at times.

    To the OP I think you did great. Thank you for standing up for what is right and being willing to say something and do something about it. If we had a few more people that cared in this country and world, perhaps it would be a better, safer, more humane place.

    You weren't a wanna be cop, you weren't a mall ninja, you weren't a vigilante out on the prowl, you simply were a concerned citizen that did the right thing. Let me finish by saying, if criminals did not put themselves in a position where they were stealing, assaulting, robbing, murdering, raping, burglarizing, vandalizing, etc... They probably wouldn't even be in a position where they could be shot or injured. Why don't we start putting the blame and responsibility on the criminals instead of the law abiding that stand up to them?

    As I began, GOOD JOB!
     
  18. Diamondback6

    Diamondback6 Member

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  19. raytracer

    raytracer Member

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    I too, think you did a good thing!

    In hindsight, the line about getting shot could have been put better - especially if the situation escalated and it came up later - but all in all you completely maintained your cool and controlled the situation.

    A final Monday morning rewrite:


    Good job!
    Joe
     
  20. ChrisVV

    ChrisVV Member

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    The last thing I planned to do was chase these guys down, I was hungry.
     
  21. Stevie-Ray

    Stevie-Ray Member

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    I doubt it too, or they wouldn't have been waiting for you outside. I think they might have actually been concerned that you were going to report a firearm threat.
     
  22. Fred Fuller

    Fred Fuller Moderator Emeritus

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    Life is often a social experiment.

    So are threads on internet fora.

    I find it interesting- not at all surprising, but interesting- the majority of reactions to this thread. I find the lack of what I consider due concern for consequences that follow choices equally interesting.

    A lot of people here seriously need to price a good defense attorney, I think. And even more importantly, consider how much a human life is really worth- theirs, some innocent bystander's, or even some creepy-crawler's.

    Goodnight, Irene...

    lpl
     
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