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Treat guns like cop cars.

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Trigger, Feb 15, 2005.

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  1. Trigger

    Trigger Member

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    I found this to be an interesting article. I think the gun industry should watch this one very closely. Wanna sue us over guns, you aren't going to get any. :)

    ______________________________________________________________

    Police give up suit so they can buy Crown Victorias
    By Mick Zawislak Daily Herald Staff Writer
    Posted Tuesday, February 15, 2005
    In Libertyville, as in most other local departments, the Ford Crown Victoria is the choice for police cruisers.

    Getting them has become an issue, however, because of an ongoing court action. To get new cars delivered on time, nearly a dozen area communities will opt out of a lawsuit brought three years ago in downstate St. Clair County.

    "Much to our chagrin, we find Ford will not allow us to order police vehicles as long as we're part of this class action suit," said Libertyville Police Chief Pat Carey.

    The suit was brought in 2002 by the St. Clair County sheriff's office and nearby Centreville Police Department, alleging Ford committed fraud by failing to disclose alleged problems with the car to law enforcement agencies.

    More than a dozen officers nationwide since 1983 were killed in fiery crashes after their Crown Victorias were rear-ended. No fatalities have been reported in Illinois.

    A jury last fall ruled the cars are safe but a judge still has to decide whether Ford violated Illinois consumer fraud laws. Plaintiffs have argued for a new trial and an appeal is possible.

    The continuing court action has left many communities with a decision.

    Libertyville wants to replace six squad cars - half the marked police cars in town - but faces an order deadline. Ford won't sell police vehicles to government units involved in the action.

    "This is not the kind of thing we've ever run into before," Carey said.

    The Libertyville village board agreed last week to opt out. Vernon Hills will consider the action tonight. The two towns have or will be joined by 10 other communities, including Lincolnshire, Buffalo Grove and Barrington, that will opt out in unison.

    Communities will be represented by Iain Johnston of the Chicago law firm Holland & Knight LLC.

    Johnston said at least a couple hundred communities were included in the class action. A notice allowing communities to opt out was sent in late 2003. Ford subsequently decided not to sell cars to remaining parties, he said.

    "All these departments needed cars," he said. "That caused a huge problem."

    Johnston said he will file an opt-out motion on behalf of the communities to be heard April 14 in St. Clair County Circuit Court.

    Mundelein has avoided any problems by opting out of the suit in November 2003.

    "This has taken on a life of its own across the country," said police Chief Ray Rose. "It didn't make any sense to get all caught up in this."

    Local departments say they have been aware of the alleged defect for years, Carey said. Libertyville's fleet mechanics have made modifications to older vehicles as recommended and there are no "operational limitations" with the cars, Carey said.

    Vernon Hills plans to replace seven Crown Victorias by mid-2006.

    "There aren't that many cars out there that fit our needs without going to an SUV," said Deputy Chief Bill Price.
     
  2. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    Works for Ford, especially because GM quit making the Caprice. It would work if several gun mfrs stuck together on it. But they won't. Even if they did, the "civilian" sales are not nearly a voluminous as with cars.
     
  3. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    The Crown Vic is the only traditional police car made. Chevy has a police package for the Impala and it doesn't make a bad squad car, but it's not a full size car. I arrested 3 people one night and literally couldn't get all three in the back of the Impala behind the cage. I had to call a sheriffs deputy to assist with transport. A midsize car is just not suitable for use as a patrol car in the minds of a lot of people. With Chrysler dropping out of the market years ago, and Chevrolet dropping out 2 or 3 three years ago, Ford has the market to themselves. The only alternates are SUV type vehicles and they are very expensive to operate.

    There isn't any firearms manufacturer that has that kind of clout in the police market. It isn't the private market that keeps new pistols coming out of the factory, it's the government market. Weapons sold to police departments will be replaced every few years. A pistol sold to a private citizen will probably last him a lifetime.

    If all the manufacturers joined together and refused to sell weapons to government agencies that sued them, it might work. But there are too many alternatives. If Glock wouldn't sell, Smith and Wesson or Ruger would.

    Jeff
     
  4. what42

    what42 Member

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    The cops in my city just got started driving Chevy Impalas instead of the Crown Vics they had before. I don't know why but it would make sense that it might be related to this lawsuit.
     
  5. cordex

    cordex Member

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    One town nearby has gone to Intrepids. Haven't had a chance to talk with anyone about how they like 'em, though.
     
  6. LawDog

    LawDog Moderator Emeritus cum Laude

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  7. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    What42,
    It's most likely related to price. The Impalas are about 3K cheaper then Crown Vics. Being midsized cars they are also cheaper to operate. Very important features to the beancounters.

    Jeff
     
  8. Nazirite

    Nazirite Member

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    I like the look of the crown vic as long as it’s not in my rear view mirror. A dodge magnum squad car, you could haul a bunch of BG’s around with that and look :cool: in the process.
     
  9. Standing Wolf

    Standing Wolf Member in memoriam

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    United we stand; divided we fall.
     
  10. TinCup

    TinCup Member

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    "I arrested 3 people one night and literally couldn't get all three in the back of the Impala behind the cage."

    Don't Impalas have a trunk?
     
  11. DJJ

    DJJ Member

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    You mean having to deal with the consequences of your actions?

    This is about the only statement coming from a cop I would believe.
     
  12. seb5

    seb5 Member

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    I'm in the same boat. I'm getting a new Impala POS in April. I had a new one in 2001. We keep our units for 3 years. We had to get rid of it in 2. Even thought the price is cheaper per unit our department spent more in maintenance. Arkansas' attorney general has filed suit against Ford so the only way they will sale to an agency in Arkansas is if the agency signs a waiver not to particiapate and/or file suit against Ford. The trunks of the Impalas are also small and after filling it with tac gear you could'nt stuff much else in.

    Chrysler discontinued the Intrepid and I'm not too keen on a station wagon. Can you say 2 cages. I had very poor luck with my first Impala. On a hot call all you saw were the Ford's tail lights. :mad: The big old sled Crowns would also have enough ponies to power out of a turn, leaving you further behind. The light rearend would not stay put. That's in addition to injectors, catalytic converters, and brakes not being up to deputy grade.
     
  13. Dionysusigma

    Dionysusigma Member

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    Jeff, you owe me a new keyboard. :)

    TinCup, you owe me a new monitor. :D

    Back on the subject, what about Monte Carlos?
     
  14. nico

    nico Member

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    Monte Carlos only have 2 doors. I can't see a cage working with one. Maybe departments should start using domestically produced foreign makes like Hondas and Toyotas. The new Accord hybrid would blow the doors off of the crown vic and the impala and gets over 30mpg.

    if only the gun manufacturers could/would do this.
     
  15. Declaration Day

    Declaration Day Member

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    If the Magnum, which is a wagon, wouldn't make a suitable cop car, what about the Charger?
     
  16. Zach S

    Zach S Member

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    I dont think Monte Carlos are available in 4-door. And they're still small cars compared to Vics.

    I dont think Magnums would make very good service cars, I dont know how often it happens, but I've seen several cars have to go over curbs and medians in route or pursuit, magnums dont have the ground clearance. Thats one complaint a buddy has about his patrol car (a Z28). The Vics cant compete on the highway, but at one curb they leave his car in the dust.

    12+ officers, nationwide, in 22 years? How many have shot themselves while cleaning their duty pistols?
     
  17. mfree

    mfree Member

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    IIRC those officers died after 60+mph rear end collisions as well.

    What happens to the unibody impala in the same impact?
     
  18. Henry Bowman

    Henry Bowman Senior Member

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    Standing wolf: You are correct, but can you say "antitrust"?
     
  19. LeonCarr

    LeonCarr Member

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    The '96 (last year they made them) and earlier Caprice Classics (aka Shamu) were awesome police cars, and would run away from a Crown Vic in a pursuit. My first LE car was a '95 Shamu, and at 142 it felt like you were driving a waterbed. Get a Crown Vic up over about 100 and the front end starts to shake like a Huey helicopter :). Several companies make a good living refurbishing and rebuilding Shamus for police use.

    Just my .02,
    LeonCarr
     
  20. George S.

    George S. Member

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    This link is to the '05 Crown Vic Police Interceptor: https://www.fleet.ford.com/showroom/2005fleetshowroom/2005-CrVicPoliceInt.asp

    I find it interesting that Ford will be including a "Automatic Fire Suppression System with manual override (late availability)" in the CVPI. I wonder if this is their "solution" to the problem instead of redesigning the fuel tank or protecting it. We all remember the Pinto and the problems it had with fire and rear-end collisions :eek:

    It's pretty amazing to me that the only motor offered is the 4.6L 250HP engine. The optional 3.55 gears do help the car but assuming a weight of close to 4500 lbs, this car should be a slug.

    For you LEO's that drive a late-model CVPI, do you think the car really has "performance" qualities?? I know that you can't outrun Motorola :D but just how much emphasis is placed on vehicle performance in terms of power output and the ability to get moving fast??
     
  21. Ukraine Train

    Ukraine Train Member

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    I drive a '95 9C1 "Shamu", it's great. I was really surprised how quick it is for a two ton+ car. What's sad is GM is still making full size sedans with LS1 engines in the middle east and Australia. I've heard rumors, though, that there will be another full size RWD car here eventually.
     
  22. LeonCarr

    LeonCarr Member

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    If memory serves me right, and sometimes it does :), the RWD GM cars (Caprice, Buick Roadmaster, Cadillac Fleetwood, etc) were made in Arlington, Texas, were they now make the Tahoes and Suburbans.

    Just my .02,
    LeonCarr
     
  23. DRZinn

    DRZinn Member

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    In a pot of water, 200 degrees and rising slowly..
    Easy fix.
     
  24. LiquidTension

    LiquidTension Member

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    Lots of departments in SC have started going with the Dodge Intrepids because they are so much cheaper than the Vics. I have no idea about what sort of police package they have in them though.
     
  25. Smurfslayer

    Smurfslayer Member

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    The last I heard, the major companies made ~75% of their profit from civilian sales....

    Since Ford won't sell the Crown Vics, and the Chevy seems to be less reliable, I think a viable alternative would be a more economical, and reliable alternative: The Toyota Tercel. You'll be driving those things until retirement thanks to Toyota's legendary reliability, and you can get 2 for the price of a single CV, putting "more cops on the street".
     
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