Trigger Discipline

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Good Ol' Boy

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I don't know how much this topic has been brought up on here and I don't shoot competition yet, so maybe some more knowledgeable folks can chime in.

When I draw from the holster at the indoor range I frequent it's mainly in order to get the gun out of the holster and shots on target ASAP, thus there is no finger outside the trigger guard.

I know in competitions sometimes there are "no shoot" targets. When you guys encounter these targets is your finger inside the trigger guard ready to go or no?

For SD purposes we are taught not to draw unless you are willing to shoot. A lot, and I mean many, of the SD video's I see online are just drawing and shooting.


What I'm getting at here is, as civilians, what's the better draw technique as far as practice? Draw and shoot? Draw and hold with finger outside trigger guard? Or a combination of both?
 
You fight like you train. Using your technique, I recommend you do not draw until you are ready to fire.


For SD purposes we are taught not to draw unless you are willing to shoot.

True. However, willing and justified are not always the same moment.

You are not "Quiksdraw" McGraw. There are times when drawing and hiding it behind you leg ready are sensible tactics. Not wise to do with your booger hook on the bang switch, though.

It is good to practice drawing and immedeiately firing, , but if that's the only way you practice, you might be drawing in reaction to a stimulus at a moment where you are already behind in the OODA loop, or drawing and firing when presentation alone might have solved the problem. Both could have dire consequences.

Case in point;
I had a situation where the actions and words of a person made it a reasonable belief that the friend I was with's life was threatened. I also knew the 'attacker', from school, who was saying all persons of a certain ethnic group should die. (His Dad had died in VN.) My friend was Taiwanese, but that didn't matter to him. The guy had a 12" chef's knife in his hand when he said it, I drew and pointed the Trooper up, finger off the trigger. Situation over. Attacker dropped the knife. We left. He asked me later (after he'd sobered up) if I'd have really shot him. I answered, "If you'd have been stupid enough to come at us with that knife, yes."
Using your logic, I'd have killed a 17 year old kid when I was pretty sure I didn't have to.

Yes, I was young and dumb. Shouldn't have been at a party carrying, even if I wasn't drinking. That was before I heard the "Stupid People doing Stupid Things" sagicity.
 
If your finger is in the guard before you are on target you could possibly blow a hole in yourself or someone or thing you didn't intend to shoot. There is a guy on a you tube video that was doing a shooting video and shot himself in his leg. If you have taken the safety off and you have your finger in the guard you better be on target. You would be better picking boogers with that finger than have it within the trigger guard while off target.
 
First all you may HAVE to draw an not shoot in order to cover a suspect or keep someone at bay for police. Most defensive gun usage does not end in gunfire.

Two, ALWAYS keep your finger off the trigger until you have decided you are GOING to fire. There are cases where people who were nervous have inadvertently fired their gun, wounding or killing another and cases where a startle response (like people moving unexpectedly) caused them to fire prematurely, again wounding or killing another. And there have been other cases where people have been bumped by objects or people and their gun fired.

Yes you fight as you train. So sometimes train to just draw and hold, other times draw and immediately fire, but in all cases KYFFOTFT until you have decided to fire.

Deaf
 
When I draw from the holster at the indoor range I frequent it's mainly in order to get the gun out of the holster and shots on target ASAP, thus there is no finger outside the trigger guard.

Are you saying that you put your finger on the trigger before the sights are on target? At some point between the holster and eyelevel your finger is on the trigger?

If so, what you are gaining in speed (not much at all) you are paying a very high price for with safety.

If you train you can easily make the same time or better and keep your finger indexed on the frame until you are ready to shoot.

You can safely train to draw using dry fire.
 
I teach that there are three independent decisions to fire a gun:

1. Grasp. Every time you pick up a gun, you don't necessarily shoot it. You might be putting it in your holster, your safe, on your dresser.

2. Point. A gun is always pointed, whether you are in control of it or not. Pointed in the holster, pointed in your hand. Every time you intentionally point a gun, you don't necessarily shoot it, nor do you intend to. The trigger finger is indexed along the frame of the gun, outside the trigger guard.

3. Shoot. When you have the gun pointed, AND you make the independent decision to shoot, then you place the finger in the trigger guard, and press the trigger. Each individual shot is a separate decision. After the number desired of shots are applied, and you are reassessing whether to fire more shots, whether on a paper target or a deadly threat, the finger comes out of the trigger guard, and off of the trigger while deciding on more shots.
 
When I draw from the holster at the indoor range...there is no finger outside the trigger guard.
This is an extremely dangerous practice and borders on the reckless.

To place you finger on the trigger before your muzzle is on target, in a stressful situation, is an invitation to a ND...without any increase in the speed to the first shot.

It has been proven repeatedly, at least since the 70s, that there is enough time between the muzzle being on target and getting into alignment for you to place your finger on the trigger. When shooting a 1911, the finger doesn't even get into the trigger guard until the thumb safety is taken off...and that doesn't happen until the gun rotates from the vertical to the horizontal
 
For SD purposes we are taught not to draw unless you are willing to shoot.

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." -- Shakespeare ;)

Unholstering a pistol is exactly equivalent in purpose to removing a slung rifle from your shoulder. You see you may have a use for it so you place it in your hands.

Laws equating threatening and menacing and the supposed approximation or equivalence of deadly force if you merely draw a pistol should always be observed very scrupulously--but in the manner of the Pharisees. You should always observe the law so long as it does not cost you.
 
Finger on the outside rim of the trigger guard. Always. The only time it isn't is when I am pulling the trigger. Getting complacent at the range is how you end up with unintended holes in something. Worst case, yourself or someone else. Best case, you shoot downrange and may injure a target clip.
 
I'm with the majority here - there's no reason or excuse to have your finger inside the trigger guard until your weapon is pointed down-range, covering something you're OK with destroying.

Having your finger inside the trigger guard during the draw-stroke is a disaster waiting to happen.

The idea that SD shooters need an extra edge in speed that might be afforded by this dangerous practice doesn't hold water. The fastest shooters in the world are competitive shooters, and they manage to shoot faster than everyone else without resorting to such measures. What you appear to be suggesting doesn't buy you anything other than a chance to make front page headlines.
 
You should practice both. Every time you draw the gun to do something admin like put it away or load it etc. you should be drawing into a low ready position, finger on frame. Most shooting practice will be drawing and immediately firing of course.

I'd seek professional instruction on your draw stroke. Reading the varied responses above, when to place your finger on the trigger is a bit confusing to figure out from internet forum posts and it may vary by gun type. For example, I run a DA/SA Sig P226. Assuming the decision to fire on a valid target is made before I draw (and I'm drawing to full extension, not retention): my finger goes on the trigger at position 3 when my hands come together. The muzzle is pointed at the target and I press the DA trigger as I extend the rest of the way and acquire the sights so the shot breaks as I hit full extension and confirm the front sight. (I almost never shoot SA only guns, when I do my finger hits the trigger at the end of the draw stroke).

The finger should NEVER be on the trigger until the muzzle is horizontal and aligned with the target. Whether to wait all the way until full extension can vary, but to say finger on trigger before the gun is all the way extended is reckless or un-safe is taking it a bit too far IMHO. Otherwise, any retention or point shooting position with the gun below the line of sight would be too reckless or dangerous to ever practice. How could it be un-safe to put your finger on the trigger before it hits line of sight in one instance, but safe if you call it "retention" shooting or something else? It is either safe, or it's not.

The problem I see is that a lot of people have a very bad habit of having their finger inside the trigger guard or on the trigger pretty much whenever the gun is in their hand. I see this a lot and it is a way different problem than a well-developed frame index and getting the finger on the trigger when the muzzle is horizontal earlier in the stroke than full extension, then back to frame index when done shooting (reloading, scanning, re-holstering etc.)

Muzzle discipline and trigger discipline. If the gun is pointed at a target you are cleared hot to shoot, (whether you can see the sights or not), finger on trigger is fine. If you aren't in the act of shooting a valid target, finger on frame and control the muzzle (low ready, position "SUL" etc.)
 
My finger goes on the trigger when the front sight comes up into view. (I'm already looking at the target.) Thumb safety goes off just before that.
 
...When I draw from the holster at the indoor range .... there is no finger outside the trigger guard.....
This is an extremely dangerous practice and borders on the reckless.

To place you finger on the trigger before your muzzle is on target, in a stressful situation, is an invitation to a ND...without any increase in the speed to the first shot.

It has been proven repeatedly, at least since the 70s, that there is enough time between the muzzle being on target and getting into alignment for you to place your finger on the trigger. When shooting a 1911, the finger doesn't even get into the trigger guard until the thumb safety is taken off...and that doesn't happen until the gun rotates from the vertical to the horizontal
That is exactly right and the way presentation is taught by all major instructors. There is no speed advantage to doing otherwise.
 
....Unholstering a pistol is exactly equivalent in purpose to removing a slung rifle from your shoulder. You see you may have a use for it so you place it in your hands....
It depends on what you do with it. But in any case, the trigger finger stays off the trigger and indexed along the frame unless the muzzle is on the target. And that applies whether I'm unslinging a long gun or drawing a handgun from a holster (and whenever I'm handling a gun).

....Laws equating threatening and menacing and the supposed approximation or equivalence of deadly force if you merely draw a pistol should always be observed very scrupulously--but in the manner of the Pharisees. You should always observe the law so long as it does not cost you.
And people who don't understand the law should be careful about making these sorts of suggestions.

The usual definition of assault, based on the Common Law is:
an intentional act by one person that creates an apprehension in another of an imminent harmful or offensive contact.

In the laws of some States this crime might be given another name. For example, in Alabama it's called "menacing." But by whatever name it is called, it is a crime in every State.

So a display of a firearm, when done for the purposes of intimidation, or to secure compliance, or to convince someone to keep his distance is, in all States, an assault of some type. You are effectively putting someone in fear of an imminent harmful or offensive contact, i. e., getting shot.

Now in all States it will be a defense against a charge of assault (or any similar crime) if you establish that your assault satisfied the applicable legal standard for justification.

In most States the standard for justifying a threat of lethal force is the same as for justifying the use of lethal force in self defense. In a few, it's a somewhat lesser standard. So in all States if you threaten lethal force you will need to be able to at least show prima facie such threat was legally justified, that is if you want to avoid a conviction for assault.

See the thread: "Brandishing", and "When Can I Draw"?

"The first thing we do, let's kill all the lawyers." -- Shakespeare ;)....
By the way, Shakespeare didn't say that. A character in one of Shakespeare's plays "Henry VI", said that; and that character was Dick The Butcher. He wasn't called "the butcher" because he was in the meat business.
 
Ok, I worded my original post wrong, my mistake. My finger is not on the trigger during the draw. Always outside the guard until on target, but that's a pretty short time when you're practicing to draw and shoot immediately.

I guess what I was trying to say was I don't practice any draw and hold with my live fire at the range. However after thinking about it more my "dry draws" at home are all draw and hold. I practice dry at home with the sole purpose of getting the gun out and on target as fast as I possibly can. The idea is it will help when I'm practicing live fire and am deliberately going slower just being more cautious.


After watching a bunch of SD videos last night I guess I was just wondering about speed versus hesitation. Some articles I've read by Mas on drawing he's getting his finger inside the guard before sights are on target. And in one I read where he was working with a DA/SA he actually mentions starting the trigger pull "as the sights are coming up on target". Basically once the gun is past the bottom of the target on the way up to COM finger on trigger, at least that's the way I read it. Me, my finger's off the trigger unless completely on target.

Which is why I also mentioned the competition thing. Obviously moving or transitioning finger off trigger but what about multiple targets or "no shoots"?
 
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Me, my finger's off the trigger unless completely on target.
Now you're waiting, IMO, a little too long. When attempting to shoot quickly, your shot should break as soon as your aligned sights are on target

Basically once the gun is past the bottom of the target on the way up to COM finger on trigger, at least that's the way I read it.
That is how it is commonly taught. I teach it as the muzzle pointing toward the target. If you are going to extend toward the target, you'd be taking up the slack in the trigger during the push out

Which I why I also mentioned the competition thing. Obviously moving or transitioning finger off trigger but what about multiple targets or "no shoots"?
I take my finger off the trigger when transitioning between arrays of targets...with a 1911, I've even been known to flip the thumb safety back on...but not between targets. Between targets, I'm resetting and prepping the trigger for the next shot
 
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Now you're waiting, IMO, a little too long. When attempting to shoot quickly, your shot should break as soon as your aligned sights are on target


That is how it is commonly taught. I teach it as the muzzle pointing toward the target. If you are going to extend toward the target, you'd be taking up the slack in the trigger during the push out


I take my finger off the trigger when transitioning between arrays of targets, but not between targets...with a 1911, I've even been known to flip the thumb safety back on. Between targets, I'm resetting and prepping the trigger for the next shot
Let me add that 9mmepiphany knows his stuff and is an excellent instructor.

A few years ago he was kind enough to give me some time on the range. I was going to be going to Gunsite for the Intermediate Handgun class and wanted a little "tune-up." I learned a lot in a few hours.
 
Here is a video that perfectly shows what I described with a DA pull.




Which is the way I shoot a DA/SA or DAO pistol.

I use a 4 count draw stroke (some call it a 5 count):

1. Grip (support hand either blocks or comes to high chest)
2. Draw upwards to highest point (thumb on pectoral) and rotate (can fire from retention at this point)
3. Firing hand & pistol meet support hand high center chest
4. Press out into tgt.

When the decision to shoot has been made prior to drawing:
DA/SA & DAO finger on the trigger during step 4, beginning trigger pull and firing as soon as I'm at full extension and sights are aligned
SAO (1911), safety comes off during step 2, finger indexed on slide/receiver, finger on trigger during 4.

With all handguns, finger is off trigger until decision to shoot has been made and muzzle oriented towards target.

Chuck
 
An additional point: Being willing to shoot is most certainly not the same as being committed to shoot. This isn't some samurai movie where the leading man can only sheath his blade if it's been bloodied.

Use of force is a life and death thing. Literally. If you switch off your brain and do not act according to current circumstance which is changing by the second, you will have a very short career. Training to shoot immediately on the drawstroke without variation will lead to short circuiting your ability to analyze the situation as it unfolds. The old saw about fighting like you train isn't just a cute saying. It is a fact written in blood.

Something I taught is every shot is an exercise in awareness. Your hands and body should be moving by muscle memory on the drawstroke. Your brain should be busy processing information. Let's assume a paper target on a square range, shooting at whatever range you like. Whether it's a buzzer or simply an internal command to begin the exercise, the body reacts and drawstroke begins. All this is muscle memory and takes little time. Your mind is better occupied with things like is there movement around the target, behind the target, is the target moving with the breeze, if i move more, less, or differently will I have a better angle to the target, is that a fly or a protected species of mosquito so I'd better not shoot?

I used to run drills on a pistol range that had an adjacent rifle range with wind flags. Exercises were scored on speed and accuracy. I'd give the command and look at the flags. Because earlier that day, trainees were told what direction was "no shoot". Example, today is "left day". If you fire a shot when the flags are blowing left, zero score for the exercise. Train your mind to pay attention to what's around you. Things around you become vitally important when your butt is on the line.

No, I've never been a civilian firearms instructor, no I'm not NRA certified and no, I don't do CCW training. I taught Sailors and Marines to use a pistol if and when their rifle was no longer available or practical.
 
I take my finger off the trigger when transitioning between arrays of targets...with a 1911, I've even been known to flip the thumb safety back on...but not between targets. Between targets, I'm resetting and prepping the trigger for the next shot

My normal carry weapon is a DA/SA trigger. Doing a course of range fire I may index my finger off the trigger when in single action. Or if I am ready to fire right away while in DA, my finger is likely on the trigger. With a Single action trigger like a 1911, I am more conscious to keep my finger off the trigger because the length and weight is much lighter. I am not worried about losing too much speed off a reaction time. Traditional thinking around the OODA loop is it takes between 3 to 5 seconds from target/threat identification to violent action. I also don't shoot competition or try to be like Jerry Miculek.
 
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