Trying to chose a 9x19 rifle

[Deog]

Beretta cx4 Storm.is As awesome as it is ugly.

 

[Bobson]

My SB brace for it should be arriving next week, like the one pictured below...

Out of curiosity, is there a "standard" MP5-style fixed stock available for it? I know you'd need an SBR stamp, just curious.

Always assumed an MP5 is just something I'd have to learn to live without. It's my only grail gun. But this looks like a pretty darn attractive alternative to the real thing. And at that price...

I Googled it and got a bunch of nonsense about the Browning A5 lol. Maybe my Google-Fu is weak today, or maybe fixed stocks for it aren't available.

 

[ifit]

@Bob...this is my first HK clone so still learning as I go, there is a standard fix stock called the A2 made in Germany $199 and U.S version $149 at HKparts.net. If you want to go the SBR route. my SB brace arrived yesterday

 

[Bobson]

^ Thank you. Love it.

Sorry to derail a bit, Girodin.

 

[Girodin]

Not semantics at all.

Calling it semantics was my way of politely trying to give you a pass on seemingly not understanding a common denotation of the word conducive. Apparently you were unable to let it go. The word conducive as I used it means favorable to.

conducive
[kuh n-doo-siv, -dyoo-]

adjective

1.
tending to produce; contributive; helpful; favorable (usually followed by to):

I never said that it was impossible to mount a RDS on one. That seems to be how you erroneously read the statement. It is not patently untrue to say they are not conducive to mounting a RDS. They are not. Because you can add a rail to the receiver and put one on does not mean they are conducive to it. It’s the same with the MP5. They weren’t designed with that in mind. A gun isn’t conducive to an optic if you have to add a rail, then add some new peep sight, and after all that you can’t have a proper cheek weld once it’s on there. Compared that to most of the other choices in the poll, they truly are not conducive to a RDS. One could of course also add a cheek riser, but then should you need/desire to remove the red dot you are too high for the irons. Maybe a solid easily repeatable cheek weld is not important to you, it generally is to me (and I’d remind you this thread was started seeking input on a gun I was to buy.)

Not complicated at all, SBR or not.

Actually, making an SBR significantly complicates the process. If you SBR it on a form one you are the maker. This means, at least in the opinion of shops like TrosUSA (who deals almost exclusively in this type of stuff, you can’t just sent the whole gun off to whoever have them cut it down to an SBR and send it back. If you send it off to a someone licensed to make an SBR then you have to transfer it back on a form 4 and that greatly complicates things. If you read the first page you would know part of my objective was to beat the trust changes. Thus going the form 4 route really is an added complication.

It is nonsensical, and seemingly just being obstinate, to say that having to pull a barrel, put it on a lathe, cut it, re crown it, thread it concentrically, remove the front sight, and remount it, is not complicated compared to the process involved with any of the guns on the list. Lets compare them

Uzi: unscrew the barrel nut, pull out the barrel, put in 10.5” threaded barrel, screw the nut back down.

MPX: attach stock to 1913 rail on the back.

TMP: screw in two screws to attach the folding stock.

Scorpion: attach stock

Uzi pro: attach stock

Kriss: drill the head off of one pin, put stock on, put in one push pin,

MP5: attach stock

Again the process on the other guns is plainly much more complicated.

Now lets compare mounting a suppressor:

None of the other choices require threading the barrel. So yes getting it threaded is considerable more effort than either screwing the suppressor on (or as I plan to do rock setting a tri-lug adapter and then mounting the can in .5 seconds.)

Have you any experience with rifles that are not AR's or similar?

I do, including building AKs. That is significantly are significantly more complicated than assembling ARs. That doesn’t mean its impossible or there is no one that will do the work for you if you don’t want to but it is undeniably more complicated. I also slick up my one lever guns, and have fixed half a dozen old guns I’ve bought.

Have you never used a gunsmith?

No. I work on my guns myself. ARs are a distinct minority of guns I own. I work on my own 1911s, AKs, shotguns, revolvers, lever guns, etc. Most of the work simply isn’t that hard. I don’t pay people to do what I can easily do myself. I probably will send out one of my AKs to have a 100 series folder installed though.

It's clear that our perspectives differ on this subject.

It seems the major difference is in interpreting the words conducive and complicated.

In sum, “not conducive to” does not mean impossible to achieve. Complicated doesn’t mean can’t be done. Lastly, this thread was about me choosing a gun for a particular niche. I then updated it by posting one of the guns I purchased. Any discussion of the Marlin/Ruger was tangential at best, so let’s move on, okay?

 

[Girodin]

There's always the Suomi.

I actually very nearly bought one of these years ago. Then I handled one. While I have a soft spot for military guns with some history, handling one killed any desire to own it.

Sorry to derail a bit, Girodin.

Don't be. With the price drop of the MKE/POF guns I am seriously considering getting one despite having just picked up a couple other 9x19s. There is so much to like about the MP5 (and I previously had occasion to get trigger time on the genuine article) and it is so iconic I would like to have one for the personal reference collection. One thing I've come to learn with guns, is if you really want something get it while the getting is good.

Many people think the recent price drop of the MKE/POFs is a reaction to the anticipated announcement that HK will be bringing in some guns.

 

[barnbwt]

Transferrable MAC with a slow-fire upper

Failing that, I've been surprisingly happy with my Hotchkiss Universal SBR

I'm glad no one has voted for the TMP/MP9 as of yet; cool, but definitely among the 'less' pleasant guns to shoot. Total marvel of engineering and pretty well made (not super awesome, but nice), but the trigger is irredeemably bad, the grip rather awkward in shape for a longer than 8" LOP, and there aren't really any stock options besides the MP9 (which is just a folding L-stock, nothing special). The TMP is especially bad, in that it doesn't have provisions for a stock, or pic-rail on top, and only has the VFG at the front --as impractical as the MP5K, but more rear-heavy and therefore harder to control the muzzle on full auto. Recoil impulse on my SPP/TP9 hybrid is more than it should be considering the size/weight of the gun (which isn't much, but is more than a handgun), and the lack of stock makes it largely cool, but useless.

TCB

 

[aka108]

I see a old guy at the range I use every so often. H shoots a 9mm either a KelTec or a HiPoint, anyway, it is fugly to say the least, lot of funny color plastic. He uses a red dot sight. What is does do is print very tight, sometime touching groups at 50 yards. It is cheap, ugly but it really works great.

 

[CraigC]

Calling it semantics was my way of politely trying to give you a pass on seemingly not understanding a common denotation of the word conducive.

So you used a word incorrectly to make an unintelligible point? Ok.

The word conducive as I used it means favorable to.

You're still wrong and yes, I know what conducive means. The gun in question is factory drilled and tapped for a rail. Like 99.99% of the rifles on the market today, that are not AR's. Like 99.99% of the rifles on the market today, you have to buy mounts before you can mount an optic. Mounting an optic on the Marlin is like mounting an optic on 99.99% of the rifles on the market today. How you can think that having to install a rail and mount a red dot sight is "not conducive" is beyond me. Personally, I think you made some erroneous statements, were called on it and refuse to admit it. Your logic on this is purely baffling.

It is nonsensical, and seemingly just being obstinate, to say that having to pull a barrel, put it on a lathe, cut it, re crown it, thread it concentrically, remove the front sight, and remount it, is not complicated compared to the process involved with any of the guns on the list.

If anyone is being obstinate, it's you. I agreed that it's not as easy as some of the other options. I even agreed that I would choose one of the other options. However, it is EASY AS PIE to have a barrel threaded and the cost is comparable to buying a replacement for one of the other choices, if not less. Like I said, I JUST (as in Thursday) received a new factory 10/22 barrel that had been cut to 16.25", threaded, the front sight dovetail reattached and the whole thing matte blued. It cost $100, took two weeks to get it and 20mins to install.

Maybe you're just afraid of gunsmiths, I don't know.

So "not conducive" because I had to install a rail first???

It seems the major difference is in interpreting the words conducive and complicated.

More like erroneous use of the word "conducive" and an odd perception of "complicated". IMHO, complicated is having a gun built that cannot be built by anyone but an accomplished gunsmith. Not sending a friggin' barrel off to be threaded.


Mounting a front sight isn't complicated, I've done that. I've also drilled & tapped for tang sights.

 

[Girodin]

Dude, move on.

 

[Girodin]

Here are a few pictures. Please forgive the poor quality.

Kriss with suppressor. I stated earlier that the threads were too long. The can I put on before did not seat all the way. This one appeared to. I'll have to mess with them some more and get out the calipers. I actually want to put a tri-lug adapter on the Kriss anyways. Also pictured for comparison is an Uzi.

Kirss with another 9x19 pseudo sub gun I picked up. I am eagerly awaiting the form 1 that was submitted on the lower gun. It is a fairly rare bird. It has a tri lug barrel and is also wearing a suppressor and an aimpoint micro.

I figured there was at least one person on this thread that would enjoy this picture. It also shows the Kriss sans can.

Shown with a folded Sub 2K. The Kriss with factory stock folded should be a bit shorted than it is with the M4 adapter/sling point that is on it now. As you can see it is a pretty compact package. A compact gun that stows away easily was one of the things I was after. I think with the factory folder the Kriss will be just that. The Sub 2k is a nice small stowable gun. It really is pretty neat. However, like many things kel tec (at least in my experience) the execution leaves something to be desired. As stated earlier it has a horrid trigger. Its sights are cheesy and fragile (there are replacement fronts available). The overall build quality is just not that great and I'd be worried about its longevity and durability if I ever pushed it real hard or put a ton of rounds through it. That said for small, handy 9x19, that takes glock mags and cost under $400 its pretty neat. I had a hi point carbine but sold it off and kept the sub 2K.

 

[Girodin]

Here are just a couple more pictures. The first one shows it with the sub 2K unfolded. The kel tec really is a pretty small gun, I didn't measure but I'm think i its probably about 29" or 30". A kriss with factory stock is supposed to be 26.5" with the stock extended. Given the Kriss has a 5.5" barrel and the Kel tec has a 16" barrel that is a pretty small difference. They are probably just about the same size folded. Of course the Kriss could be fired whereas the kel tec could not.

Here it is shown with a 10.5" Noveske. I wanted something that would be a smaller package than an AR SBR. Once the form one is approved I want to do a lot more comparing and contrasting between the kriss as an SBR and an AR SBR.

 

[Girodin]

Another option is the brethren armament BAP9 they are like a modern take on an mp5 buy they are 3000 dollars new

There are a bunch of stories floating around of folks not getting their guns from them. See e.g. the last couple pages of this HK pro thread. http://www.hkpro.com/forum/hk-clone-talk/229002-mp5-clone-build-go-6.html It appears they are having varies issues getting the guns built and delivered. Personally, I'd be much more inclined to get a licensed MKE/POF than an incredibly expensive (2-3 times the price) clone that the company has no clue when they will be able to deliver it.

 

[ttarp]

The delays in production is due to lack of parts supply, apparently there is some legal action going on, and they're starting to produce all of the parts in house, hence the longer wait times. I'm right with you about POF and MKE though, and if your going to pay twice what a POF cost you might as well pay a little more and get an Hk.

 

[Bobson]

Very cool. Think John will like that lol

 

[C0untZer0]

Many people think the recent price drop of the MKE/POFs is a reaction to the anticipated announcement that HK will be bringing in some guns.

Anticipated MSRP of $2699.00 ???

http://www.thetruthaboutguns.com/2016/05/foghorn/hk-top-finally-import-civilian-version-mp5k-sp5k/

I wouldn't think HK clone makers would have to drop their prices...

 

[ifit]

Whoa $2700 for the letter H&K? and no magazine paddle release.....no thanks

 

[zeke]

Excellent thread. Went through some of the same considerations for 9mm rifle, and got a mpx pistol. Pick had some practical reasons, like the store had one easily available. Sent in app to sbr it, and with a 4.5 inch barrel and suppressor, it out to be fairly short.

Main reasons for getting 9mm rifle are related to getting older and pistol skills are deteriorating. Can see open sights on rifle much easier than pistol. For range and home defense, don't need the power or complexity of reloading for a rifle.

After owning a HK91, have always wondered about how the MP5 treats brass?

Girodin-sincerely appreciate your use of the English language.

 

[rodregier]

I've seen MP5'ed brass. Looks a bit strange because of the fluted chamber, but it's reloadable. Extractor nibbles a bit of the rim of the case.

 

[ttarp]

After owning a HK91, have always wondered about how the MP5 treats brass?

I get the occasional dented case mouth, but the majority are just fine in my experience(which isn't vast), nothing like the rifle caliber Hk's for sure.