trying to double tap

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roval

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couple of days ago tried doing 10 yrd double taps for fun. it was hard. apparently 10 yrds is difficult as other forum members have explained. I went back to the range with 2 45s a 1911 and a sig p220 and 2 9mms and xdm and czp10c. i did better compared to 2 days ago after i just concentrated on center mass. after i made the video i realized most of the hits were only the first shots . so not as good as i thought. . it's still cool looking at how the guns recoil if fired quickly .

last part was unrehearsed 50yrd shots with the 4 pistols . taken in one unedited cut. i was just going to keep the video for myself but what the heck it's fun. the sig sights do make it hard to do longer shots with its drive the dot setup.

mind you guys i am doing this for fun not for competition aspirations or to be tacticool. well maybe some of the latter.

 
One thing that I found to make a profound impact on my follow-up shots was "rolling my elbows", as John Lovell demonstrates in this video:
It truly helps as one more set of muscles trying to return to the position they were in before the recoil.
 
Your stance and grip are way off, and your "ready" position isn't correct. Grip is in desperate need of improvement as well. This is evident from the recoil management exhibited in the video. Elbow needs to be locked out, if possible. Most likely your trigger control needs work as well. I can't tell if you are releasing the trigger after each engagement, or applying the safety after the engagement with the 1911- if you aren't, that is a safety concern. I know for certin you aren't de-cocking the Sig after engagement and using DA for the presentation shot, which is an improper technique for that pistol, as well as a safety concern. .You are also rushing your shots (slow down- you can't miss fast enough), and there is no follow-through. Reloads/re-engagement definitely need to be improved as well- you tend to reload low, and do not observe the threat when reloading, and your gun isn't in your working space. The good news is you can hit a small gong at 50 yards- wait until it quits bobbing to re-engage- the angle of it and TOF when it is bobbing makes the target much smaller mid-bob, contributed to why you missed it when it was bobbing. What it boils down to, is that all input at the firing line determines the results downrange.

Recommendations: First, I would advise some range time with an experienced instructor, ASAP. He/she could quickly correct your mistakes, and replace bad techniques with good techniques, before your bad techniques become more deeply ingrained as bad habits. Second, you are using 3 different mechanisms of handgun (striker, traditional DA, and SA). I strongly recommend you commit to mastering 1 of these at a time, or even consider just committing to 1.
 
I'm an old Cooper'ite and believe he would have called what you're calling a 'Double-Tap' a 'Hammer'. This is as fast as you can fire the two shots and won't be very accurate at anything but contact distance. What he called a 'Controlled Pair' is what works best for many people and the rate of fire is determined by the 'Controlled' part meaning you go as fast as you can hit and no faster.

Also want to mention the latest grip fad of 'thumbs forward' doesn't seem to offer as much recoil control as a tighter 'thumbs down' grip.....at least not for me. At the rate of fire in your video unless using a comped race gun there won't be many who can score two solid A-zone hits so you might try slowing down until you can...then practice at that tempo.
 
One thing that I found to make a profound impact on my follow-up shots was "rolling my elbows", as John Lovell demonstrates in this video:
It truly helps as one more set of muscles trying to return to the position they were in before the recoil.


Great video! I do have my elbows out usually, like hugging a tree. it stabilizes my shooting but i never shoot this fast to begin with. the first shot with the 1911 i think short stroked the trigger impossible as it may be.
this was mainly to see if i can hit the target with at least the first shot and for fun. i didn't decock the sig intentionally as i was shooting for fun . shooting a revolver DA like this as i discovered a couple of days ago was even harder.

i could hit this target much more consistently if i shoot slower of course and get better hits. it's seeing what happens with the attempt.

it's like one of those " now that you've gotten it out of your system let us properly begin... " things although i don't think im going to pursue it further.

here's video with the shadow 2 at 9:50 i do aimed but not too fussy sight picture for shooting at 25 yrds, the closest steel is allowed.



again the original video is not to show how it's done. it's my attempt. it is great to video youself doing things to see what you are doing wrong. i.e fllycasting, attempt at hopping on a mountainbike etc.. also it's better than taking pictures because it lets you relive the experience. also after the difficulty in synching 2 camera footages you want to keep your work. I'm a middle age mediocre mountainbiker but i take videos of ny rides all the time for the same reason.

I don't do drills,practice my reloads etc.. i'm one of those shooters that shoot mainly for fun and can i shoot a home intruder if i need to kind of guy.

i was wondering. when anyone will comment about checking my 6, heck this was for fun at a range again not a serious attempt at tactics etc...if shooting was all about self defense I'd only shoot at 3 to 10 yrds and try to perfect that.

a class would be great but i don't have the time or advance knowledge of my work schedule.
 
now this is the way to do it. i should have watched the video before hand
it also gives an idea how far the targets are in taran tactical.

 
One of the most useful pointers in the Taran/Vogel video is the moment (3:26 in the video) when Vogel shows how to get the support hand on the gun and roll it into proper position as the gun comes up. Getting the support hand on the gun and into a proper grip is critical to good shooting. Doing it without getting the support hand in front of the muzzle or getting any of the support hand fingers into the trigger guard is essential. The method he shows is safe and results in excellent consistency.

For whatever it's worth, I can't replicate Vogel's grip and still shoot properly. When I cant my support wrist forward and try to use the grip he does, it results in a lot of tension in my support forearm and trying to maintain the gun in a shooting position while holding it the way he does actually becomes painful fairly quickly. The front sight will drift up and right for me if I relax at all when in that grip. It is very stable, however, and if your anatomy allows it, it will probably give you an advantage as it obviously does for Vogel.
 
i did better compared to 2 days ago after i just concentrated on center mass
You're slapping the trigger on the first shot and not waiting for the sights/slide to return for the second shot.

the sig sights do make it hard to do longer shots with its drive the dot setup.
You shouldn't be driving the dots at 50 yards. You should be aligning the sights using the POA/POI hold (sight alignment #2; referring to the common chart)
 
Also want to mention the latest grip fad of 'thumbs forward' doesn't seem to offer as much recoil control as a tighter 'thumbs down' grip.....at least not for me
I didn't think a grip that was validated in the 70s was still considered a "fad."

But you are correct that the thumbs down grip offers more control. However, that control isn't needed when you can manage recoil and make faster followup shots with a correctly applied thumbs forward grip
 
You shouldn't be driving the dots at 50 yards. You should be aligning the sights using the POA/POI hold (sight alignment #2; referring to the common chart)

it is aligned with equal height and equal light but then i cover the target with the dot. with sight pic no. 2 which is what i always use for my guns i still miss my gong often even at 25 yrds only with this sig. doing the above last range session i finally got consistent hits at 25 yrd. normal shooting pace.

at 50 yrds it's harder as you semi cover the target and it is 50 yrds. . i would have done better if i practiced with it. I've never shot that sig at 50 yrds since i do poorly with it at 25 yrds. the bullets were 6.5 g unique with 230 gr rn. it's not a light load.
 
I'm not an expert. I do shoot and practice double taps. For me, it is much easier with a single action semi-auto than any of my striker fired guns. I do quite well with my 1911, my Micro, my PPK/s, and my 92 Beretta. Not so well with my Kahr, Shield, or EC9S.
With a Ruger Mark I, II, or standard, I am "great".
 
Neutral balance in the stance, poor posture in the upper body, not driving the gun, elbows rolled down, bowling the presentation, slapping the trigger, jumping off of the trigger, not recovering the front sight on the double. Nothing in the video except a lot of potential for improvement.
 
I didn't think a grip that was validated in the 70s was still considered a "fad."

But you are correct that the thumbs down grip offers more control. However, that control isn't needed when you can manage recoil and make faster followup shots with a correctly applied thumbs forward grip

'Latest' is a relative term...and for me, it's still a 'fad'.:) How does that grip work with only using one hand? Don't think it would be anywhere near as effective as the thumbs down and unless you're shooting strictly for fun & games it seems that relying on being able to use both hands could get someone in a bunch of hurt should that dark day happen where you have to use the shooting skill for self preservation. If a grip that works the best with one hand is adopted then using the support hand is a bonus and not a requirement.
 
Neutral balance in the stance, poor posture in the upper body, not driving the gun, elbows rolled down, bowling the presentation, slapping the trigger, jumping off of the trigger, not recovering the front sight on the double. Nothing in the video except a lot of potential for improvement.
i agree that is why it turns out to be much harder than it looks.
 
How does that grip work with only using one hand? Don't think it would be anywhere near as effective as the thumbs down
It works fine, much more effective than with the thumbs down as it allows the sights to return back onto the original POA more quickly without having to pull them back onto target. I've extensively tried both techniques before settling on thumbs forward as more efficient. If you haven't tried it, you might give it a spin.

As a matter of fact, my thumb pretty much "floats" off the frame when shooting one-handed...it is more accurate. I even float my thumb when shooting my revolver one-handed.

With you being a follower of Cooper, I'm a bit surprised that you aren't familiar with Gunsite teaching that one-handed shooting technique

'Latest' is a relative term...and for me, it's still a 'fad'.:)
When I think of "Latest", I usually think more in terms of Center Axis Relock...or maybe what Vogel uses (post #6)
 
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Start out by moving your ready position center mass of your chest and press out. It's hard to tell how tight your grip is, but it looks extremely light. A big mistake a lot of people make is by not including the bottom pad of your hand, which runs directly in line with your right pinky, on the backstrap of the gun. Grip that gun as high as you can as well. Squeeze your chest and "clamp" that gun tight, tighten your right hand grip and your left hand grip even tighter. Neither hand should be "restful" as some will say. Your objective is to have minimal muzzle rise, and what you have should be straight up and down. Learn your triggers reset and use it. I found it helpful to do a drill where you start off doing 2 shot strings and counting "one one thousand, two one thousand" and speeding up as you get better. To shoot fast you have to adjust to jerking the trigger instead of squeezing the trigger. High tight grip, squeeze chest, clamp down, and reset. Think of your body and a living gun vise. Good luck
 
Great thread guys. As a 73 year old instructor I still find myself learning something new every day.
Thanks for all the great posts.
 
Congratulations. You've done an experiment and learned something. You learned that you don't have the level of recoil control to land 2 hits on a target of that size at that speed. That's valuable knowledge. If you desire, this can launch you on a voyage of discovery, growth, and skill acquisition.

Obviously, the gun is bouncing around WAY too much in recoil to allow those kind of splits with any kind of accuracy. A very common problem for many shooters is that their left/support hand doesn't really contribute to recoil control, because the gun slips past/through the left hand. In recoil, the gun will move, and so will your hand if you have any kind of grip on it. You want them to be locked together, so that they stay in the same relationship. If the gun moves .01 mm in relation to the left hand, the left hand isn't really the job it needs to do. If you feel the need to "re-grip" with your left hand after shooting X shots, then your left hand wasn't doing its job.

From the video, it appears that the gun is squirming around a bit in your left hand. Fixing that would be a good place to start. Now, that's inherently challenging, since you cannot effectively apply force to the rear of the gun with the left hand... you are dependent upon friction to apply force to the sides of the gun. There are really about 3 things you can do to better weld your left hand to the gun: 1) add friction, with more checkering/stippling/grip tape and/or some kind of gripping fluid; 2) add surface area by adjusting your grip so that more of your left hand is in contact with the gun; or 3) apply more pressure. I think you should explore both 2 and 3.

The seriously competitive shooters in speed-based pistol sports almost all have crushing grip strength, and use it pretty well with their support hand. Squeezing hard with the strong/shooting hand is good, too, but it can come at the expense of trigger control and/or trigger speed, and with the backstrap and beavertail to work against, it's a little easier to keep the gun from moving around. With the left hand, absent a thumb-rest or some other specialize/odd mechanical interface, you really only have the force of your grip and friction. Squeezing your fingertips towards your palm (and vice versa) as hard as you can with your left hand is something you can do immediately. When you put the gun down, you should be able to see the imprint of the checkering or stippling of the gun's grip on the heel of your left hand. Unless you are getting muscle tremors that are making the gun shake, you really cannot squeeze too hard with the left.

Changing your grip around may take a bit more time. Lots of people have very strong views on precisely how the left hand should be positioned, but the really key thing is to have as much contact area as possible while being as high on the gun as possible. For most people, a good approach is this. Grip the gun with your right hand. Look down at the left grip panel, where your left hand will go. Notice that the exposed area of the gun in between your right hand fingertips and the heel of your right palm forms a crescent shape? A backwards C? Now look at the palm of your left hand (while keeping the gun pointed downrange!). Notice how the heel and lower edge of your palm have a raised, C-shaped area? Now, fit that crescent-shaped raised area of your palm into that crescent-shaped space of the grip! Fiddle around with this, trying for the greatest area of contact, and, all else being equal, getting as high as you can. For most people, this will involve flexing the left hand at a downward angle - this gets the part of the heel near the base of the thumb up high, and often over the index finger of the right hand. And for people who don't have Bob Vogel's orangutan hands, this usually means putting the top edge of the left index finger tight up against the trigger guard.

The good news is that this is all very learnable stuff. It doesn't take any superhuman talents to learn effective recoil control of service-caliber handguns.
 
'Latest' is a relative term...and for me, it's still a 'fad'.:) How does that grip work with only using one hand? Don't think it would be anywhere near as effective as the thumbs down and unless you're shooting strictly for fun & games it seems that relying on being able to use both hands could get someone in a bunch of hurt should that dark day happen where you have to use the shooting skill for self preservation. If a grip that works the best with one hand is adopted then using the support hand is a bonus and not a requirement.

Competition practical/action pistol shooters routinely have to shoot with one hand. It works just fine.

But, outside of control interface, the position of the thumbs isn't really key, since they do relatively little work in controlling recoil. The thumbs forward grip is a good way to get the rest of the hand into the position that is optimal for most people. That's why it works... not because of the thumbs themselves.
 
ill practice some of the pointers here next time and ill stick with a 9 mm. before i do my usual thing.
 
I learned how to do a double tap when I was with the Marines. The instructors always said if its worth shooting once its worth a second bullet. I like recommending either a .22lr conversion or a similar gun in .22lr to find your triggers breakover point.
 
trying to double tap ... 10 yrd

i'm one of those shooters that shoot mainly for fun and can i shoot a home intruder if i need to kind of guy.
Try this for fun:
  • Clear pistol and point in safe direction
  • While watching the front sight, pull/press the trigger
  • Did the front sight move or jump? If no, great and move to next step. If yes, check out this post and next post on holding the pistol and not moving the front sight - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902444
  • At the range, place a blank target (flip any printed target or use a copy paper) on the cardboard and draw a 1" circle in the center (you can use a round sticker or bingo dauber)
  • Place the target at 5 yards and while focusing on the dot (and not the front sight), fire the pistol
  • If the POI (Point of Impact) was different from POA (Point of Aim), DO NOT change your grip rather make adjustment at shoulders to move POI up/down and at waist to move POI right/left.
  • Make necessary adjustment until POI is within 1" of POA
  • Once you are able to consistently repeat POI at POA, place two dots/circles about 4" apart
  • Practice shooting at both dots (left-to-right and right-to-left) until POIs consistently hit POA within 1"
  • Once proficient, move dots closer to 2" and practice
  • Then shoot twice at the same dot - Now you are double tapping at 5 yards
  • Place multiple dots on target and practice until you can double tap on any dot at 5 yards
  • Incrementally increase the distance to 7 and 10 yards while repeating the two dots from 4" to 2"
  • Then shoot twice at the same dot - Now you are double tapping at 7 and 10 yards
  • Place multiple dots on target and practice until you can double tap on any dot at 7 and 10 yards
Enjoy!
ill practice some of the pointers here next time and ill stick with a 9 mm.
Once you master the technique, you can double tap with any pistol.

If you want to do more than just shoot double taps at 10 yards, follow along this thread to shoot accurate and fast - https://www.thehighroad.org/index.p...-help-me-speed-up.824618/page-4#post-10902226
 
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i will try the 2 dots. i think people think i shoot that poorly to begin with. I'm decent when I'm shooting slow. it's rushing shooting that i wanted to see how I'd shoot. granted i was in too much of a rush with this video. i wanted to balance speed with poor sight pic and hits on target and i did poorly. i also shot several pistols in one edit clip since i knew synching the footage would be the hardest part. in fact if ever there was a decent group ( fortunately i didnt have to worry about that) then it would have meant i wasn't going fast enough.( great shooters can shoot superfast and still get small groups but not me) i also shoot in a range where the closest target is 10 yrds.

with slow fire and well adjusted sights. i can do this below. granted i have good and bad days.

 
i think people think i shoot that poorly to begin with. I'm decent when I'm shooting slow.

I certainly didn't think that. You obviously have the ability to align the sights, hold the gun fairly still given ample time, and press the trigger straight to the rear. What you don't currently have is much recoil control, and you may also lack the ability to move the trigger straight rearward fast. The lack of recoil control means the muzzle of the gun moves through a wide angle of motion - far above the target line, then dripping far below it, and moving side-to-side a bit, too. Eventually, you can re-stabilize the gun... but not very quickly. This limits how quickly you can trigger a second shot and keep it on the target. You were outrunning that speed, shooting before the gun was re-oriented onto the target.

The bottom line is that shooting fast stresses/tests things in addition to "fundamentals of marksmanship." You cannot merely up the tempo of pulling the trigger if you are doing the minimum required for accurate slow shooting. And, make no mistake about it, learning to control recoil while still maintaining marksmaship fundamentals is not easy. It does take a lot of practice and work, but it doesn't require superhuman effort or extraordinary talent.
 
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