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Trying to reason with a pro-ban "pro-2a" soon-to-be-former friend...

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Diamondback6, Jan 9, 2013.

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  1. Diamondback6

    Diamondback6 Member

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    So, I'm trying to shock some sense into a formerly close friend who flipped to the other side after the Newtown cluster of spree-killings (it's time to STOP calling them school shootings like they're something special, which plays into the other side's hands, and just lump them in with all the other spree killings), and I need some advice on a draft email. Rules are, keep it intellectual and articulate... I need well-reasoned approaches that I can club a former law-student over the head with and have a good chance of them getting her to see that if she helps DiFi & Co. throw US under the bus today, SHE will be joining us under the tires tomorrow and all we'll have to say is "Told You So".

    Here's what I have so far... latest revisions in bold red, and still working.
    Thoughts? Additional data? Elaboration? This isn't the "Dear Jane, goodbye, have a nice life" letter yet, but if she can't be brought back to her senses (as recently as October, she was telling me that she agreed with me about the importance of the citizen rifle in home and homeland defense, which to me means best-case she's been swept up in the SFO-area hysteria) that may well be the next note she reads from me.

    For the record, I am cross-posting this on a couple other forums as well. Thanks, guys!
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  2. rookorami

    rookorami Member

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    I think you have a well reasoned e-mail. Giving sources and information. At this time I personally cannot think of what to add.
     
  3. rondog

    rondog Member

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    You can't teach a pig to sing.
     
  4. JFtheGR8

    JFtheGR8 Member

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    I've always said that when trying to polish a turd you just end up with (poop) on your hands.


    Posted from Thehighroad.org App for Android
     
  5. rookorami

    rookorami Member

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    It may seem futile but why not try. It is a terrible tragedy those children were killed by a murderer. We need people to look past emotion and consider facts and listen to reason.
     
  6. larryh1108

    larryh1108 Member

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    Some people, especially stubborn, educated people, can't be reasoned with. They feel that since they are educated and smart that their conclusion is the right one no matter how much data you provide otherwise. You end up beating your head against the wall in the process. The only thing you end up with is a headache.

    Nice email, BTW. You said all you need to say to sway someone with an open mind. Some minds are closed, locked, welded and buried in the sand. They can't be talked to. We have several fine examples spread across the country of these types of people.
     
  7. Diamondback6

    Diamondback6 Member

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    Mods, thanks for the move--I thought this could be considered Activism because if I could jar her back to her senses, it might be possible to use similar techniques to start peeling the rest of the pro-gun lefties off from their support. We need to make Gun Control politically radioactive on BOTH sides of the aisle, right?

    And if we can turn people from DiFi and Pelosi's own back yard... *evil cackle*
     
  8. sonick808

    sonick808 Member

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    I have lost one of my closest friends since childhood due to him steering every conversation back to my ownership of guns. I know this doesn't help your letter, but I want you to know you're not alone.
     
  9. Walter

    Walter Member

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    I think it's a well-thought-out and well-written letter. I really like this part;

    But it has been my experience that logic seldom overcomes emotion, and emotion is what most of the "do-gooder gun ban-ers" are running on these days.

    I hope your friend sees the sensibilities of your position, but when young kids get shot down like they did at Sandy Hook, emotion can be a powerful force.
    Good luck.

    Walter
     
  10. Diamondback6

    Diamondback6 Member

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    Yeah, the nasty part is that before she turned we were able to put our Left/Right differences aside and I was even open to the possibility of having kids with her someday. Now, though...

    Larry, be careful, I AM one of those "stubborn educated people" LOL--it's just that I took away different lessons as a History major than everybody else... that the very nature of government itself is to be an evil powergrabbing crapsack unless continually challenged on it by a populace that can use all FOUR boxes of resistance effectively.

    Re pointing out Peter Lanza's wealth and VP of Finance gig at GE, I figured if I tried to sneak in an appeal to her "1%" bullcrap, that might be another chink in her armor to soften her up by...
     
  11. Sock Puppet

    Sock Puppet Member

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    Agreed.
     
  12. BLB68

    BLB68 Member

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    The tone of the letter was a bit agitated IMO. When dealing with a loved one (". . .I was even open to the possibility of having kids with her someday."), I've found it's better to take a more detached approach and let the facts speak for themselves. If they trot out an anti-gun talking point, counter with facts, not emotion. Seems like you got riled up a bit, and that can't be good for any relationship.
     
  13. KTXdm9

    KTXdm9 Member

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    This. Take out the emotion and bury her in logic and facts. Her response will tell you if she is a lost cause or not.
     
  14. LubeckTech

    LubeckTech Member

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    The bottom line in the Sandy Hook incident is this young man was going to do harm to innocent children who did nothing to deserve it. If he didn't have access to any type of firearm his mother would surely still be dead as she was taken totally by suprise as she slept. Maybe with no gun access no children would have perished just been badly hurt or perhaps fewer or maybe MORE - bottom line is this kid was going to do something. Maybe it would have been with a car or molotov cocktail or disconnected gas line there are many ways to create mayhen. It's is a hard heart that kills and this miscreant was out to hurt children one way or another. Had a responsible person been carrying that day the outcome would have been different.
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  15. Diamondback6

    Diamondback6 Member

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    BLB, for the record, that may not mean as much as you're reading into it--we had been close, as much so as an Internet contact can be anyway... but not really "intimate"; for me "would I be comfortable with the idea of her as the mother of my children?" is my FIRST litmus test when considering the "Would I Date Her?" question. Second is "Do I trust her to be responsible around my irons, and be able to extract herself and any kids we may have from a hostile situation while I Hold The Line and provide cover if required?"

    Yeah, maybe I'm a little irritable--we had an understanding about not arguing on our respective Hill To Die On issues, like how I find the partial-birth abortion she considers the sacrament of her Democrat cult-faith grotesque and even ghoulish, and SHE welshed on that deal and initiated the argument with me knowing that she was backing me into a corner.

    It also doesn't help that I do come off a bit cold a lot... I remember one case in college when there was a discussion about 9/11 in the cafeteria and I cause everybody else to light up an argument because of my breaking the numbers down on how a sufficiently motivated group of passengers could retake a 767 and ending with "5 to 1, numbers are still good, Rush The Bastards."
     
    Last edited: Jan 9, 2013
  16. BLB68

    BLB68 Member

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    Thanks for the clarification, Diamondback. However, I'll let my suggestion stand. Still no point in burning bridges.

    My brother has been living in NJ since the 80s (military, went to work for his civilian counterparts when he got out), and we had a bit of a go around on the subject the other day. He's one of those "If you can't hit them with ten shots, you're not qualified to own a gun," and "nobody needs an AR" types nowadays. Didn't get riled up, but gave him some information to chew on.

    Not that the above is an indictment of NJ, but his attitudes have changed over the years to those that are prevalent in that part of the country.
     
  17. Diamondback6

    Diamondback6 Member

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    Right, amigo, I take your point--and am trying to address it, but she does need to know that she's risking torching the bridge by her own actions, that if we were in contract negotiations this would be the Last Best Offer stage. It's damn painful having to do this, believe me, and I'm not choosing my words lightly... while I'm not an AR15 guy, my uncle's Garand and M1 Carbine and my 1911 are my "My Cold Dead Fingers" guns, and even if neither were specifically marked by name or feature in any of the bans that are currently being drafted in this round of proposals they WILL be in the next, so my own best line of defense is to remember that "we either hang together or hang separately" and choose my actions and positions accordingly, because if I refuse to stand for others then when the come for me I wouldn't DESERVE for anyone to stand up for me even if there were anyone left to do so.
     
  18. Ieyasu

    Ieyasu Member

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    Diamondback6, is she for banning all guns or "just" certain semi-automatic firearms? I'd base one's approach on that answer.
     
  19. r1derbike

    r1derbike Member

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    I'm old. Long ago, I decided trying to convert anyone to agree with my personal beliefs, convictions and life's lessons was a lost cause. I am married, happily. We both have our beliefs, interests, and passions, but we don't try to force them on each other, because there is mutual respect, and the need to allow each personal space to be our own special beings.

    It's the same as women who try to change we men. We are totally different in our makeup. Our brains are wired differently. There is no changing us, except to be accepting of our loved ones' place in the world, and whatever it is that makes them happy. That isn't them changing us, that's being an unselfish life partner.

    In younger days, long ago, I was intolerant of anyone who did not share my interests or outlook on life. It caused many breakups, as many of my lady friends were equally intolerant as well.

    You grow-up, mature, and see that life is not all about you (me).

    There are far more important things in life to enjoy, than tit-for-tat fights about divisive issues.

    Just some ramblings from an old man. Ridicule me if you want, my skin is thick, and my breath of an ox.
     
  20. Diamondback6

    Diamondback6 Member

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    'Bike, if this last attempt fails, I'm not trying to change her, just to tell her that if we can't go back to "status quo" of "I don't poke sticks in your cage and you don't in mine" that it may be time for us to part ways.

    I don't care if she agrees with me (like I said, though I strongly disagree with her on abortion issues I at least don't poke her on them), just that she NOT keep trying to cram her new position down my throat and trying to beat me into submission on it, and that IF things were to go anywhere she would have to be able to suck it up and at least TOLERATE my irons. That's all anyone can really expect of another, isn't it?
     
    Last edited: Jan 10, 2013
  21. 1911 guy

    1911 guy Member

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    Two things I'd consider.

    One, make the e-mail as detached and impersonal as if you were writing it to a stranger. The references to "your idiots in Ca.", while probably sorrect, are accusatory and she, by default of human reaction, will become defensive. That puts her in a less than concilliatory and open-mined mode.

    Second, accomplished by the first point, if there is to be a bridge burned, let her be the one to set it alight. She then will have no option to say to herself or anyone else "Well, HE did and said such and such".
     
  22. Diamondback6

    Diamondback6 Member

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    Working on it, 1911 guy... just edited OP to current revision in progress. :)
     
  23. Pilot

    Pilot Member

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    I don't understand how some 2A supporters can be for banning arms that specifically lend themselves to the true intent of the 2A. Self defense and defense against a tyrannical, over controlling, abusive, and non-representative government.

    No matter how much you tell them it is not about hunting nor sporting firearms to seems to fall upon deaf ears.
     
  24. JKHolman

    JKHolman Member

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    Diamondback6,
    you need to treat this like evangelism. Keep your message free of emotion. Present your argument in a clear and concise manner, and let her sleep on what you have said. The more you push it, the likelier you are of losing the person. And for goodness' sake do not resort to name calling (even of persons whom you two mutually disapprove).
     
  25. Isaac-1

    Isaac-1 Member

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    One thing I have found over the years when talking with young women of a certain age range is that their hormones effect their decision process far more than they will generally admit. Try pointing out things like the story last weekend of the woman in Georgia that shot the intruder with 5 out of 6 rounds from her revolver while protecting her 2 children just to have the guy get up and try to drive off. Or the story of the young recent widdow with her infant child in Oklahoma last New Years (2012) being on the phone for 20+ minutes with 911 as a guy beat down the door to her mobile home ...
     
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