`Turkish Shotgun experience

[tark]

Well, my LGS has sold about a half dozen of these things so far, with only a two complaints about the gun being a little cranky at first feeding rounds from the magazine. Mine was not. All six guns are still out there with happy owners. eastbank raises a valid question about reliability with a high round count. My Cobra model is not a hunting gun or a trap/skeet gun. It is a defense gun and as such, most owners will never subject their guns to a lot of firing time. If I were to subject it to heavy use, it might indeed fall apart. If it does, it will be reported here.

I do know that when disassembling the gun I was very impressed with the quality of the machining and the fit and finish of the parts. I have seen cheap guns that looked cheap and this one most assuredly doesn't.

 

[cdb1]

And yet, nothing in the manufacturer’s (Khan) history instills us with the confidence you display in TriStar, an importer/distributor…

And yet you are ignoring the fact TriStar has been around for 25 years and sells good shotguns. And unless things have changed Khan makes the TriStar O/U’s, they don’t make Tristar semi’s so there is a good chance Khan doesn’t make TriStar pumps. I don’t know who makes them.

Turkey is like Spain. To keep their doors open back in the day, the Spanish makers built shotguns to the price point importers were willing to pay, ergo the Matador. But they were also able to produce very very nice shotguns, which they do today. The difference between Spain and Turkey IMO is while Spain was always capable of making excellent shotguns, Turkey might not have been able to from the get go. But they certainly can and do now.

In doing some research a while back I got the impression that who the true owners of the Turkey gun makers are is murky and there are interelations between a lot if not all of them.

You also keep dwelling on Khan’s past. Maybe their present is better, I think it is.

 

[Roverguy]

And yet you are ignoring the fact TriStar has been around for 25 years and sells good shotguns. And unless things have changed Khan makes the TriStar O/U’s, they don’t make Tristar semi’s so there is a good chance Khan doesn’t make TriStar pumps. I don’t know who makes them.

Turkey is like Spain. To keep their doors open back in the day, the Spanish makers built shotguns to the price point importers were willing to pay, ergo the Matador. But they were also able to produce very very nice shotguns, which they do today. The difference between Spain and Turkey IMO is while Spain was always capable of making excellent shotguns, Turkey might not have been able to from the get go. But they certainly can and do now.

In doing some research a while back I got the impression that who the true owners of the Turkey gun makers are is murky and there are interelations between a lot if not all of them.

You also keep dwelling on Khan’s past. Maybe their present is better, I think it is.

Khan makes the gun in question. I have given specific examples of poorly made guns that Khan has made. You offer no examples of good guns that Khan has made. I don’t know why you have an issue over this. The chippyness around Turkish guns is strange. They range from quite good, to good value for money, to rubbish.

Khan is known for making rubbish. We shall see from range and durability reports whether that has changed.

 

[entropy]

Perazzi also had lots of problems at the beginning. They had a hard time finding a US distributor until Ithaca took them in. I had the chance to shoot an Ithaca/Perazzi MX-8 in 1981. Compared to a Browning Superposed or Remington 3200, I was not impressed. I had a chance to buy that one for half of new $$ when the firing pins broke. I passed. (Yes, I kick myself for that now.) You can bet I am impressed with them now. Khan has a way to go, and will never match Perazzi in quality, but the Tri-Star pumps are serviceable, the semi autos are a great value for the money, particularly in 20, 28, and .410. The field O/U's are a good gun for the guy who, like eastbank said, shoots 100 rounds a year at game, and the odd round of clays. The TT-15, well, it's getting better over the years, but the metallurgy in them isn't yet ready to take on 5000 or more rounds a year.

 

[cdb1]

Khan makes the gun in question.

How do you know that? I did a little digging and couldn’t find anything about who makes TriStar pumps.

 

[tark]

Well, Kahn definitely made MY pump, it says so on the barrel.

 

[tark]

I have given specific examples of poorly made guns that Khan has made. You offer no examples of good guns that Khan has made.

You have done nothing but throw out accusations of poor quality guns made by Kahn, without any specifics, like what models, what the issues were, or links to any bad reviews. Everything I have seen in my gun points to a well made, smooth operating gun. And the five other people who bought the same gun at my LGS will tell you the same thing.

 

[Insignificant bill]

I can t afford any Turkish shotguns I would like.

 

[rust collector]

Turkish guns run the full spectrum of quality, just as US, Belgian and Spanish guns. We just don't have a lot of history, so many of us tend to be skeptical. My LGS had a bad experience or two and declined to work on them previously. Since then they have seen some specimens with better build quality and support, so have them in the display cases again. I ordered an SKB trap gun a few years ago, knowing that SKB of Japan had ceased to operate. The semi-auto I received was made in Turkey, while the current SKB double guns are made in Italy. Time will tell, but after two seasons function is good and no signs of unusual wear are noted.

On the other hand, I picked up a lightly used Maverick 88 defender recently for $250, and learned afterward that was MSRP for a new one ! Ah well, I like my guns to be tested by others anyway.

 

[tark]

I guess roverguy decided to go troll somewhere else.

 

[RUT]

>>used Maverick 88 defender recently for $250, and learned afterward that was MSRP for a new one<<

Unfortunately, MSRP doesn't mean much right now as far as Maverick 88s go. Most places advertising MSRP or less pricing have nothing in stock.

 

[Tirod]

There has been an upgrade in the quality of a lot of Turk guns. One reason is that some are owned by a major aerospace company now, and their standards for building jet engine and frame parts for Boeing, Airbus and others have filtered down. Another is they have the capital to afford better equipment, and further, their workforce aren't primitives in loin clothes the way some portray them.

Turks who emigrated to Germany in the 60's (because Germans were too proud to work assembly lines) now make Volkswagens, Audis, and Mercedes Benz. I haven't heard their quality or pricing getting discounted over it. In Turkey, Canik is producing NATO accepted pistols that have been run thru the 55,000 round durability tests and are being used in some countries as the sidearm of choice. Price doesn't hurt either. Note that the Canik is a copy of the Walther P99 - and there are quite a few Gen 3 Glock copies out there now, as the patents expired. They are now being imported, too.

Same with shotguns which have a world wide market. In the US it takes a distributor to front the paperwork and have stock to ship, they are. Turkish shotguns sell, IIRC one semi auto bird's head grip is moving well. The difference in recoil between a bird's head and traditional Pistol Grip is significant as many owners have witnessed.

I wish Mossberg offered the return spring for the 590. In that use it you'd hold the slide stationary and let it help push the action back into battery, as the more accomplished users do. Faster sight times because it's not bobbling around as much to get on target.

In the day we prided ourselves on American makers coming up with innovation, now we have to search overseas for some of it. Our political environment stifles a lot of that, not so elsewhere. With a 40% average price discount, and improved quality, we are seeing bargains daily.

 

[Roverguy]

I guess roverguy decided to go troll somewhere else.

I decided to stop interacting with people who have a bizarre chip on their shoulder about a shotgun made by a company with an established track record of poor performance. Khan have a poor reputation for a reason. Maybe this new pump will be different than the guns it has made in the past. But twisting one’s knickers up will not change the history of Khan.

 

[cdb1]

It’s not a chip. You keep talking about Khans bad performance and it was valid in the past. But Khan has improved and you refuse to acknowledge it. And as been stated already you have not given any concrete examples of Khan’s bad performance, either personal or by second hand experience.

 

[toivo]

Back to the spring-loaded pump action ... My main issue with it is that you wouldn't be able to eject a round from the chamber and not load the next one.

 

[tark]

I decided to stop interacting with people who have a bizarre chip on their shoulder about a shotgun made by a company with an established track record of poor performance. Khan have a poor reputation for a reason. Maybe this new pump will be different than the guns it has made in the past. But twisting one’s knickers up will not change the history of Khan.

Read post #39. When you are done, either provide some evidence for your claims... or go troll somewhere else.

 

[Roverguy]

I have given specific examples of Khan’s poor performance. Fact. Read above.

But let’s look at others’ experience on the matter, shall we? Specifically, take a look at the views of a gunsmith on the subject, post #9:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/khan-shotguns.258334/

The fact is that Khan has a well established track record of making rubbish. That’s not up for debate. The premise of those who assert that this sub $300 pump, made by Khan, is “better” seems to be based on the fact that it is being marketed/distributed by TriStar. That’s a big jump. Economics tell us that an imported gun retailing for less than $300 was made for somewhere well south of $200 dollars. Therefore, there is no past basis on which to suggest that this gun is a departure from Khan’s well established track record of poor production.

Put a few thousand rounds through it and then honestly assess it. Until then, there is no basis whatsoever to suggest that Khan has suddenly produced a good gun at some number less than $200, and no hopeful thinking or chippiness will change that fact.

 

[rust collector]

There is no substitute for personal experience. Dire prophesies based upon price paid and ten year old forum discussions notwithstanding, the proof is in the pudding. Now that we have someone who has put his money down, we can look forward to his report after there has been significant powder burning and function testing on the gun.

 

[tark]

Thank you for finally providing some evidence to back up your claims, Roverguy! So Kahn did make some guns that were short of perfection, many years ago. Maybe they still do. I would like to say that I will put a few hundred rounds through mine and get back to you on its reliability but the price and availability of ammo makes that rather hard to do. If it screws up I will say so, here, but in the meantime I am quite happy with it.

 

[Hugger-4641]

If it screws up I will say so, here, but in the meantime I am quite happy with it.

That's all that really matters. I bought a Cobra 12 mag fed semi autoand very happy with it. I know its not a range gun, I don't plan to shoot trap with it, and I don't plan to shoot birdshot in it much. It slings buckshot without fail and that's what I bought it for. Mine has shot 100rds of Estate target rds with a handfull of feed hiccups in the first few mags. The last few mags have been flawless.
If it breaks or resumes having feed problems, I'll post here also. So far the quality appears as good or better than the Stevens and Remingtons on shelves right now. I'm happy with it and don't really worry what anyone else thinks of it.

 

[upptick]

Perhaps modern CNC equipment is so ubiquitous and so effective that the operator and its home country just doesn't matter anymore.

 

[somethingbenign]

Like said earlier paintball guns have a return spring on the pump arm commonly. Those guns don't lock up when the chamber (I honestly don't know if it is still considered a chamber in an air gun) is closed. I'm surprised to see in a pump shotgun because I have yet to see a pump that doesn't lock up the chamber.
Glad to hear the machining looks promising, I'm secretly hoping TriStar turns out to be a fantastic importer of guns. They have some coated OU shotguns I've been eyeing for a couple years but still getting a solid feel on if their break actions are to be trusted or not.

 

[tark]

The chamber is locked on my gun by a single locking lug that rises up from the bolt and engages a cutout in the barrel extension...Just like every other pump shotgun I have ever seen. Well, most of them, anyway. I understand that some shotguns, like a Winchester model 12, don't use a separate locking bolt. The spring has nothing to do with locking the action closed. It can be removed if one doesn't like it.

 

[entropy]

I have given specific examples of Khan’s poor performance. Fact. Read above.

But let’s look at others’ experience on the matter, shall we? Specifically, take a look at the views of a gunsmith on the subject, post #9:

https://www.shotgunworld.com/threads/khan-shotguns.258334/

The fact is that Khan has a well established track record of making rubbish. That’s not up for debate. The premise of those who assert that this sub $300 pump, made by Khan, is “better” seems to be based on the fact that it is being marketed/distributed by TriStar. That’s a big jump. Economics tell us that an imported gun retailing for less than $300 was made for somewhere well south of $200 dollars. Therefore, there is no past basis on which to suggest that this gun is a departure from Khan’s well established track record of poor production.

Put a few thousand rounds through it and then honestly assess it. Until then, there is no basis whatsoever to suggest that Khan has suddenly produced a good gun at some number less than $200, and no hopeful thinking or chippiness will change that fact.

I take anything anyone says on shotgun world with enough salt to raise my BP by double. Granted there are enough Turkish gun haters on Trapshooters.com also, but most of it is directed at the TT-15, an actual Trap gun. They just do not have the metallurgy yet to survive 50,000 rounds, which a good Trap gun needs to be able to do. I'll admit I'm not a huge fan of the other Turkish O/U's either, but as I said above, they are good guns for the guy who hunts 2-3 days a year, and shoots a round of trap or SC to practice for that. I've shot the Mossberg Silver Reserve, and the Savage 555, the Mossberg was the (slightly) better of the 2. Both are too light, and the trigger on the Mossberg was long, heavy and gritty. The one Turkish line that actually impresses me is Huglu's shotguns they make for CZ. Seriously considering a Bobwhite in 20 ga., but I have a Sauer 16 ga. that I'm taking pheasant hunting tomorrow, and I don't have to worry about scratching it up, it's been around.

But we are talking pumps here, aren't we? State of the art manufacturing techniques are not needed to make them, nor labor-intensive processes, like an O/U. These guns, it must be remembered, are made to hit a price point. I have no doubt that within the Turkish gun manufacturing community, someone (my money would be on Huglu here) could produce a Model 12 replica every bit as good as the original, as Miroku did. But it would price itself right out of the market, as Miroku did. Yes, the Turkish pumps aren't 870's and don't try to be. (Well, maybe in profile and operation.) But they are doing very good business undercutting the Maverick 88's price point, and with similar quality.