Twilight 2000, the RPG got me thinking about retrofuturism and firearms.

[Miami_JBT]

In the 1980s, GLOCK revolutionized the handgun market and flipped the apple cart.



I remember when GLOCK hit the scene and how amazing it was in terms of its manufacturing and reliability. It was everything that the HK VP70 tried to be. Affordable, easy to make, high capacity, simple to operate, and very easy to maintain and clean.

So what does that have to do with the old school in 1980s pen and paper RPG Twilight 2000?

Simple.

The plot of the game was that in the mid 1990s, WWIII breaks out between the Warsaw Pact and NATO. After a nuclear exchange, the war becomes a conventional conflict of attrition and static lines for the most part with a no-man's land in between East and West. In this no-man's land, you have local partisans, cut off units, bandits, rebels, local militias, etc... even Warsaw Pact and NATO troops that "go rogue and go native" siding with the locals trapped between two devastated superpowers.

Well, the idea of the HK VP70 was to be an affordable handgun that can be cheaply and easily mass produced so it can be handed out like candy to NATO stay behind units and partisan forces.

Well, the GLOCK pistol supplanted that notion in reality because it achieved what the HK couldn't. In the game, since both major centers outside of the immediate combat zone were also wrecked with nuclear strikes. Complicated manufacturing would be out of the question. The goal would be mass produce simple items, much like what the Third Reich tried to do towards the end of WWII with their Volkssturmgewehr and Volkspistole projects.



What would the West make as a their Volkssturmgewehr? I figure the CAV-ARMS MKII pattern AR-15 would be just what they'd be looking for. A way to save crucial materials and stretch out what they have. The GLOCK would also be the perfect handgun too.





What do you think? If WWIII went hot and the entire world didn't end up as an irradiated glowing ball of nuclear winter. What do you think would be the solution to the pressing need of arms for the troops still alive and kicking? Well, those that didn't grow a third arm and died of cancer that is.

 

[hso]

What do you think?

I played a lot of T2k and even ran some. The problem with any injection molded firearm is that the infrastructure to produce the materials and perform the injection molding is too advanced after the trashing of Europe. The tech level for firearms production drops to Pakistani mountainside village levels. Instead, I could see stateside CivGov and MilGov perhaps making that tech work. But Europe post WWIII wouldnt have the polymer production capacity.

 

[NIGHTLORD40K]

Only played a bit of T2K, but TONS of Battletech!

Oh, and a little thing called Space Hulk, which eventually became a big thing called Warhammer 40K, especially in the UK.

Somebody wise said no one knows what WW3 will be fought with, but WW4 will be fought with arrows and sharp sticks.......

I guess if I still had some machine-shop level industry left, I would concentrate on simple blowback submachine guns like the Ppsh41 and PPS43.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, we would probably see "industry" on a par with Khyber Pass gunmakers, and the breakdown of governments, communications, transport, etc. would make semiautomatic firearms a little too high tech. During the German occupation of Norway there was a resistance workshop that was able to make Sten guns, and for local defense groups, militias, whatever I think a bolt action would be better, simpler to train with, make safe,
maintain-and control fire discipline with.

 

[entropy]

I think this would be the perfect American Volkssturmgewher:



The TRW Low Maintenance Rifle; mostly stamped parts, it was developed for exactly that scenario, back in the early 70's.

I never played Twilight 2000, but spent many happy hours in the local comic book store reading every book/module that came out. My favorite was "Airlords of the Ozarks" followed closely by "Pirates of the Wistula"

 

[Tommygunn]

Perhaps something more akin to the WW2 British Sten Gun ..... ?

 

[BigBore44]

Low tech? Probably an AK or grease gun. Don’t need much more than a stamp and mill.

 

[Dudedog]

Low tech? Probably an AK or grease gun. Don’t need much more than a stamp and mill.

Grease gun or Sten are what come to mind.

 

[Speedo66]

A resurgence of one shot, folded steel, unrifled “liberators”?

But where is the ammo coming from?

 

[FROGO207]

Heck reusing the mangled steel as in making billets to machine and barrels with no supplies of quality steel. Doubt those dudes in the Khyber pass are meltimg down tin cans and casting receivers,barrels, and slides. Also the making of ammo. Matchstick primers and just black powder would be it without many complicated chemicals that are available from around the world. This is presently impacting our ammo supplies today like it or not. Jist sayin'

 

[armoredman]

I played that game way back in the day - forgot all about it. IIRC my character carried an HK CAWS...
I have personal experience with the CavArms one piece poly lower - DAMN good setup. That might be a way to go if someone with money was ramrodding the thing.

 

[CapnMac]

I see that a number of people have blurred the distinction between machine milling and sheet metal stamping.

Stamping is not a back-of-the-barn simple tool step.
Stamping is a way to use less-sophisticated alloys in steel to make certain gun parts.
The stamping dies require significant engineering (and some crucial alloy steel), the stamping press is not a small bit of kit, either.

Too many think of stamping as just a fancy bending brake, instead of using forge-heated steel plate struck in 15, 20, and larger ton presses, often a sequence of such things.

If the casting moulds are in good shape, and the coolants and feedstock are available, polymer casting can be kept going in little more than a garage. (Trimming the flash, setting up jigs for welding the parts together, and the rest, may need another garage.)

However, history suggests that simple things, tube receivers and open bolts would be the order of the day.

 

[hso]

Anything more complicated than a Sten will probably be very difficult to build in the return to preindustrial Europe. Stamping and injection molding are modern industrial processes requiring precision and power unless you're using hydraulic presses and AK blanks (but where does the sheet metal and the dies come from?).

The Dara gunsmith are exactly what come to mind.

You would be working with a strange mix of battery powered and hand tools until you got back to "civilization".

 

[doubleh]

Zip guns would probably come back in style for the common man.

 

[P5 Guy]

Used Presses for Sale • Hydraulic / Mechanical Press Sales (almamachinery.com)
Some stamping punch presses to show how expensive and complicated they are.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

Yes, the Sten was basically a glorified zip gun, the purpose of the Liberator was to allow a resistance fighter to capture an enemy soldier's weapon and equipment.

 

[Nuclear]

Stern styled gun with an unrifled barrel would be the easiest to manufacture. The catch would be ammo, in particular primers, as we well know.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

That TRW rifle looks it was inspired by the German MG34 and MG42 machine guns.

 

[Golfanaticshooter]

I think the Warsaw Pact would have a huge advantage, as there are probably millions of Mosin-Nagants in storage with plenty of ammo. They never throw anything away. Hopefully the good guys are prepared as well with caches of reliable weapons because the soldiers/fighters will probably be riding T-34s.

 

[readyeddy]

Industrial centers would be gone. Even if a factory survives, how can it be supplied. Once the ammo runs out, we would be back to muskets, bows, spears and swords until a population center can develop its food production, economy and manufacturing.

 

[cslinger]

Wow Twilight 2000 there is something I haven’t heard in a minute. Good times.

 

[BLACKHAWKNJ]

In the last 3 months of the Third Reich the Luftwaffe had the planes-many quite adavanced-the ammunition, the ground crews and bases, but they couldn't get the fuel to them.
I wonder how many M-Ns they still, I have bought enough of them.