But, can you do it while bullets and other hunks of steel and such are coming at you, all while your body is screaming at you to get out of the way / run like the devil himself is after you?
Like I said games are games, not really the same thing.
Two Hand Grip
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Like I said games are games, not really the same thing.
newbuckeye
Member
That's when your training kicks in and the things that you have committed to muscle memory happen. And remember one thing that has been said (I can't remember who)...you are only half as good in a fight as you are on the range.
And if your training teaches you to stand there, assume a stance and grip all due to muscle memory. What then? Games are games, while any practice is good, don't think being the best gamer will make you the best combat shot. Then again, old Alvin did win a turkey shoot or two.
coolluke01
Member
Why you are focused on games is beyond me. This is about thumbs forward grip.
Mindless naysaying is not helpful.
A good grip is a good grip. If you practice a good grip when the SHTF hopefully you will employ a good grip and be successful.
Mindless naysaying is not helpful.
A good grip is a good grip. If you practice a good grip when the SHTF hopefully you will employ a good grip and be successful.
kcshooter
Member
Exactly.
"Games" or defense, a good grip is a grip which will allow better ability to shoot well.
A bad grip is a bad grip.
If you don't train to obtain a good grip, chances are when you do need it, it won't be there.
RBid
Member
There is a lot to be said for conditioning and 'games'.
I was behind a collision at high speeds a few years ago. Admittedly, I was driving too close to the car in front of me, who suddenly ceased moving. In the moment, clarity struck:
- "I'm going to die"
- "I have ABS. I will roll through my brakes. I can steer."
- "Is someone behind me?"
I remember being aware of all of those things in the moment, and of doing two things:
1. Somehow, glancing up at my rearview the instant I saw the car in front of md stop. There was a car coming fast in the lane to my right, and another behind me.
2. Brakes + clipped swerve to the left, into the space between the white line and the divider.
I rolled through the space neatly, with next to zero room to spare, and came to a stop. I hit nothing.
The point of this story is that I had internalized enough over the years, despite never being in a life or death vehicle related incident, to be prepared when it happened. This is why people train. Many 'games' in competition shooting are essentially training, with incredible volume of reps.
I know a few guys who have been in exchanges. Their accounts range from "I was just trying not to get hit", to things like "I just focused on my sights" (or similar variation of 'did what I was trained to do').
When any kind of real situation occurs, the people who perform best are those who are best conditioned, and who experience clarity under stress.
A lot of these competition shooters are very accustomed to maintaining fundamentals under stress. I would certainly not want to get into a gunfight with Rob Leatham or JJ Racaza.
I was behind a collision at high speeds a few years ago. Admittedly, I was driving too close to the car in front of me, who suddenly ceased moving. In the moment, clarity struck:
- "I'm going to die"
- "I have ABS. I will roll through my brakes. I can steer."
- "Is someone behind me?"
I remember being aware of all of those things in the moment, and of doing two things:
1. Somehow, glancing up at my rearview the instant I saw the car in front of md stop. There was a car coming fast in the lane to my right, and another behind me.
2. Brakes + clipped swerve to the left, into the space between the white line and the divider.
I rolled through the space neatly, with next to zero room to spare, and came to a stop. I hit nothing.
The point of this story is that I had internalized enough over the years, despite never being in a life or death vehicle related incident, to be prepared when it happened. This is why people train. Many 'games' in competition shooting are essentially training, with incredible volume of reps.
I know a few guys who have been in exchanges. Their accounts range from "I was just trying not to get hit", to things like "I just focused on my sights" (or similar variation of 'did what I was trained to do').
When any kind of real situation occurs, the people who perform best are those who are best conditioned, and who experience clarity under stress.
A lot of these competition shooters are very accustomed to maintaining fundamentals under stress. I would certainly not want to get into a gunfight with Rob Leatham or JJ Racaza.
Nushif
Member
I applied the thumbs forward grip in the first class I took, which is about .... two years ago? To be honest before that I messed around a to with a lot of different grips and guns. In the mean time while not a super shot I would consider myself passable, which seems to be more a product of practicing one way consistently.
Is the two handed grip better? I dunno, but it works for me. Then again with enough practice a lot of grips work well for a lot of people.
One thing I did notice though during class is that I found it a lot faster and easier to engage and disengage my firing grip for things like doorknobs, phones, reloads and hopping over fences (at least hypothetically, though I did reload. A lot. Being the only single stack guy in class.) I seem to do better with a "wrapped" grip than with an "interlaced" one, at least in that arena.
Is the two handed grip better? I dunno, but it works for me. Then again with enough practice a lot of grips work well for a lot of people.
One thing I did notice though during class is that I found it a lot faster and easier to engage and disengage my firing grip for things like doorknobs, phones, reloads and hopping over fences (at least hypothetically, though I did reload. A lot. Being the only single stack guy in class.) I seem to do better with a "wrapped" grip than with an "interlaced" one, at least in that arena.
I practice with strong side supported, strong side unsupported and reaction side unsupported, and malfunction drills. for a ccw/defense gun you need to practice know you gun and practice,
for shooting for points at a range stance,grip,breathing all will help,but shooting for self
defense can be very different.
for shooting for points at a range stance,grip,breathing all will help,but shooting for self
defense can be very different.
Nushif
Member
Ok, but what does this have to do with specifically the difference between thumb locked and thumb forward grip?
Ya got that right!
While I tend to use thumbs forward, when I took my CHP class, the former LEO that taught part of the class taught thumb over thumb for better weapon retention.
It's definitely easier to hang onto your gun with the thumb over thumb - with the thumbs forward, it's incredibly easy for someone to break your grip on the gun (in a struggle or ?).
'Course, when I offered this (optional) tidbit up once, I was scalded by the thumbs forward ONLY crowd. It was pointed out to me that you would / should never be in a struggle for your weapon (I just love how folks can predict the future with such certainty).
Doesn't make much difference with me - I can go either way.
coolluke01
Member
Huge fallacy! Thumb over thumb does not provide a more secure hold at all. It may feel like you have a tighter grip because you feel that pressure on the bottom thumb, but it has no impact on hold force on the gun.
A thumbs forward hold places more skin in contact with the gun and spreads the grip of the gun over a larger area. This helps keep the gun from being twisted out of your grip.
I will put my thumbs forward grip up against your thumbs crossed grip any day of the week!
Also saying that there is a time for up, crossed and forward is not an informed statement. Some may stick with the hold they have and it will work for them. A thumbs forward grip will provide better contact with the weapon and allow for more control and faster followup shots.
A thumbs forward hold places more skin in contact with the gun and spreads the grip of the gun over a larger area. This helps keep the gun from being twisted out of your grip.
I will put my thumbs forward grip up against your thumbs crossed grip any day of the week!
Also saying that there is a time for up, crossed and forward is not an informed statement. Some may stick with the hold they have and it will work for them. A thumbs forward grip will provide better contact with the weapon and allow for more control and faster followup shots.
Quote= "Also saying that there is a time for up, crossed and forward is not an informed statement."
Yes it is. You just didn't understand because I didn't elaborate on my statement.
When I shoot my revolvers, it's time for a Thumb over Thumb.
When I shoot my Sig, it's time for a Thumb Forward.
Sorry for not being more clear....
Yes it is. You just didn't understand because I didn't elaborate on my statement.
When I shoot my revolvers, it's time for a Thumb over Thumb.
When I shoot my Sig, it's time for a Thumb Forward.
Sorry for not being more clear....
kcshooter
Member
If you are in a physical struggle, and you continue to keep both hands on your gun, you've already made a grievously stupid error.
coolluke01
Member
Ok that's makes more sense. I thought you were saying that each situation would call for a different grip.
I thought you were saying that each situation would call for a different grip.And we're off....!
Next I'm sure someone will be along to lay out how my /your life or death encounter will be scripted.
Stuff happens - as they say, no matter how you train for you pre-planned scenario, when it happens, chances are it's gonna be nothing like you ever envisioned...
Murphy's law and whatnot...
Very few pro's stick with either version, they use a modified version, modified to work better for them. If a firearm is a shorter barrell it is going to affect the way you hold it. Revolvers are completelly different, you can't place your hand against the cylinder. A cup is the best 2 handed motion with a snubby or a magnum. Some times shooting with the left hand rolled a bit to the right also, helps if you are shooting single action, cocking with your left hand.
I believe once you reach a certain level where you are shooting out the center of the target, you have found your groove. Same with feet, I was watching one of the top guys shoot the other day, and he said he uses a modified weaver, so it's ok to change things to adapt to what works best for you. There is no 1 way to do anything.
Hickock says the same thing, what works for you.
I believe once you reach a certain level where you are shooting out the center of the target, you have found your groove. Same with feet, I was watching one of the top guys shoot the other day, and he said he uses a modified weaver, so it's ok to change things to adapt to what works best for you. There is no 1 way to do anything.
Hickock says the same thing, what works for you.
I am in agreement with the thumbs forward style. But I have found myself on my Butt, shooting upward using the famous hurry up and shoot this guy before he shoots you stance. When possible you should use proper techniques. It will help even if you find yourself in the Butt shooting position. It's difficult to take everything into account, it has to be second nature. And you must get to a point where no matter what happens you are able to adapt to the situation. No one was around when I started shooting ,other than family, so I picked up a shmaydray of techniques and oddly enough they weren't much different than what works and is taught today.
I guess given enough time a man figures out what works and what does not, But it sure is much easier today when you have the type of guys like the ones in here to help you save years of trial and error. Sam ,9,Tuner, and others, will save you a lot of grief if you practice what they are telling you.It just may save your life someday. That 1/4 inch difference might make the difference in weather the guy can fire another round or his frontal lobe has been detached from his muscles.
But again if you found a system that works for you then use it, just don't be so stubborn that you refuse to try something new. If you can put 10 rounds in the bullseye at 50 feet, in 10 seconds, then stop reading and keep doing wht your doing. You may just want to pick up your speed. But otherwise you are very likelly to survive a gunfight. If you can't then try something different. Shooting paper is different because you can correct you aim on a stationary object, Not so with moving objects, it just happens too quick, You would be better off shooting quail or pheasent, when you don't know where the bird is and it just takes off. Try it with a pistol if you are under the impression that you are that good.
My bet would be that you don't hit 1 bird. That's ok most folks including me would have to be lucky to do it, but we never stop learning. If you get 2 in a row with a pistol, then you are very good, and need no assistance.
I guess given enough time a man figures out what works and what does not, But it sure is much easier today when you have the type of guys like the ones in here to help you save years of trial and error. Sam ,9,Tuner, and others, will save you a lot of grief if you practice what they are telling you.It just may save your life someday. That 1/4 inch difference might make the difference in weather the guy can fire another round or his frontal lobe has been detached from his muscles.
But again if you found a system that works for you then use it, just don't be so stubborn that you refuse to try something new. If you can put 10 rounds in the bullseye at 50 feet, in 10 seconds, then stop reading and keep doing wht your doing. You may just want to pick up your speed. But otherwise you are very likelly to survive a gunfight. If you can't then try something different. Shooting paper is different because you can correct you aim on a stationary object, Not so with moving objects, it just happens too quick, You would be better off shooting quail or pheasent, when you don't know where the bird is and it just takes off. Try it with a pistol if you are under the impression that you are that good.
My bet would be that you don't hit 1 bird. That's ok most folks including me would have to be lucky to do it, but we never stop learning. If you get 2 in a row with a pistol, then you are very good, and need no assistance.
newbuckeye
Member
That's good advise, Gym. I've been using the "revolver grip" locking my thumbs since I started shooting pistols in about 1987. I'm a fair shot but very interested in learning something new. Now....off to the range for "research"!
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