Two navies a la wild bill hicock
- Thread starter Bruce D Pease
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44 Dave
Member
I got my last one when Midway had a sale.
bannockburn
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- 26,294
drobs
I think you're right; waited last year for them to go on sale but never saw it happen. It's too bad as the last couple of years for Christmas I got a Pietta Remington NMN and a Pietta Colt Model 1860 for some very low prices!
I think you're right; waited last year for them to go on sale but never saw it happen. It's too bad as the last couple of years for Christmas I got a Pietta Remington NMN and a Pietta Colt Model 1860 for some very low prices!
Deltaboy1984
Member
Cool!
Crunchy Frog
Member
Do as Driftwood suggested: bring that brace of Navy Colts to a cowboy action match.
expat_alaska
Member
I agree. I bought a Pietta 1851 Navy .36 from Cabela's in 2016 [CP] during a one-day sale for $170 (normal price then $200) plus free shipping. Those days are long gone. I think we can "thank" Bass Pro Shops for that.
In November 2018 I bought a Traditions Pietta 1851 Navy .36 [CT] for $219 from Old South Firearms when they had 4 in stock. Old South still lists them at that price but it needs to be back-ordered. Still the best price I have seen in almost a year.
http://www.oldsouthfirearms.com/traditions1851coltnavyrevolver-36calibersteelframe75octbarrel.aspx
I don't see what the fuss is about with Traditions supposedly having better quality Pietta guns NIB. The Cabela's Navy was in a Pietta box and was of the same quality or maybe a bit better. You decide.
Traditions Pietta (top) and Cabela's Pietta (bottom):
Good hunting!
Regards,
Jim
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Malachi Leviticus Blue
Member
expat,
I've never seen or heard any fuss or other claims that Traditions revolvers were anything special. I suppose Traditions might say so, but you are the only one whom I ever heard claim otherwise (many times). Where are these claims coming from? As far as I know Traditions is just an importer, brand labeling a product with nothing added other than a box and possibly customer service. Are there a bunch of Traditions groupies out there making up stories somewhere?
expat_alaska
Member
From the Old South website:
"1851 Colt Navy Revolver - Steel Frame, 7.5" Oct. Barrel, Walnut Grips. All Pietta revolvers are built to Tradition's high Quality Control Requirements and are among the best of the Pietta Brand."
http://www.oldsouthfirearms.com/traditions1851coltnavyrevolver-36calibersteelframe75octbarrel.aspx
Jim
"1851 Colt Navy Revolver - Steel Frame, 7.5" Oct. Barrel, Walnut Grips. All Pietta revolvers are built to Tradition's high Quality Control Requirements and are among the best of the Pietta Brand."
http://www.oldsouthfirearms.com/traditions1851coltnavyrevolver-36calibersteelframe75octbarrel.aspx
Jim
forward observer
Member
Now that Cabela's has been completely taken over by Bass Pro, it's headed to be nothing more than Bass Pro 2 with a different name. I'm afraid that it won't be long before they quit selling black powder items all together. I hope I'm wrong about that.
On a brighter note getting back to Wild Bill Hickok.
I just received three antique S & W revolvers in last week that I won in an auction from about two weeks ago. One of them is example of the last revolver that Wild Bill was known to have carried. It was allegedly taken off his corpse after being shot in the back of the head by Jack McCall while he was playing poker in the Nuttal & Mann's saloon in Deadwood in 1876. It was reportedly the only gun he was carrying at the time.
It's a single action tip up Smith & Wesson No 2 Old model (sometimes called the Old Army) chambered in .32 rimfire. This was the 2nd cartridge firing pistol that S & W ever made with the No. 1 in .22 rimfire being their first. Smith and Wesson started with breech loading cartridge firearms right out of the box in 1857 and never even manufactured a percussion model. Colt was still over a decade away from marketing their their first conversion breech loader. This was because Smith and Wesson had secured the rights to the Rollin White patent for the bored through cylinder, which legally kept Colt and everyone else stuck with making percussion revolvers until the White patent ran out.
S & W introduced the larger and more powerful Model 2 in 1861 and produced them throughout the ACW continuing on until 1874 with a total of some 77k produced in total. Those with a serial number below 35k were produced before the war ended and could have been used during the conflict. Although it was never purchased by the war department, thousands were bought and carried by Union soldiers as personal backup firearms.
Here's a shot of a Union cavalryman showing off his Model 2 along with his Remington 1858 tucked in his belt.
The serial number on mine is 321XX which puts it inside the war production period. The one that Wild Bill was carrying when he was killed is serial number 299xx--so only about 2000 serial numbers earlier. Somehow it seems kind of neat to me to possess a pistol that rolled off the production line only about 2000 models later than one actually owned by Wild Bill. Hickok both worked and fought for the Union during the war in several jobs and it's not impossible that like many other Union soldiers, he bought one of the popular S & W no 2 Old model .32's during the war and kept it as a backup for the rest of his life.
After he was murdered, Hickok's personal effects were gathered by the sheriff and held, but at some point a local shop owner approached the sheriff asking about a debt that Hickok had ran up at his store. The shopkeeper was given the pistol in payment. It was subsequently handed down through the family of the store owner, but then was left by the last family owner to a close friend. There is quite bit of provenance and documentation of all of this, so most historians seem to give credence to the story.
Anyway, I remember when it came up for auction in 2013. The bidding reached $225,000 and stopped. Unfortunately the family had put a reserve on the price that was much higher, so it did not sell. It may have been sold privately afterward but I've heard nothing about it since then
Here's the story of how the family got the revolver and how it ended up for sale:
https://www.fieldandstream.com/artic...-murdered-1876
and here's the news link about it failing to sell at auction
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...9AH0G320131119
Another famous person of the period was connected with the model 2 besides Hickok. George Armstrong Custer who was massacred only a few months before Hickok was shot was also known to have owned a fancy cased and engraved pair of the No 2 pistols.
I also won an example of the model 1 second issue that was an even more popular ACW private purchase. S & W made over 100k of these and sold thousands to Union troops during the war They started production in 1857 having patented their new 22 short the same year and having also acquired the exclusive rights to the Rollin White patent for the bored through cylinder. That patent is what kept Colt firearms and others from being able to go to a cartridge firing revolver until many years after the war ended. The frame on this is brass, but silver plated as most were.
-and here's another tintype of two soldiers with the one on the right holding his model 1 while the one on the left has a more practical
1860 Army
Lastly, I snagged a S & W model 1 1/2, which was introduced just after the war. It combined the small size of the model 1 with the larger .32 caliber of the model 2.
Here's a shot of all three. I set out only to acquire the model 2, but the model 1 1/2 was in the same lot. Then when the model 1 was going to go for cheap, I snapped it up too. Basically I ended up with an example of all 3 of S & W's tip up models. S & W updated the model 1 and 1 1/2 later with fluted cylinders to look more modern, but soon switched from 32 rimfire to 32 centerfire and got rid of the tip up models in favor of a top break style. The box of ammo is a still sealed full container of .32 short rimfire black powder rounds manufactured by UMC/Remington around 1910. I'd be tempted to try to shoot some but I doubt the priming material is still good and if I break open the seal it decreases the collector's value
I forgot to mention that the method to load these is: release the latch at the lower front corner of the frame. The barrel then hinges up and the cylinder just drops out being only held in by two fixed pins at each end of the frame. The long pin under the barrel is the extraction system. One just turns the cylinder around and uses the pin to punch the empties out. Next, one loads the cylinder with fresh cartridges, replaces it, and closes the barrel down until the latch catches. There is no half cock, so I suppose one would leave one chamber empty and just orient it under the hammer when replacing the cylinder for safety.
Anyway, so while Hickok was famous for his pistol skills with his Colts, he left this life while carrying a little Smith and Wesson rimfire which he never had a chance to use.
Cheers
On a brighter note getting back to Wild Bill Hickok.
I just received three antique S & W revolvers in last week that I won in an auction from about two weeks ago. One of them is example of the last revolver that Wild Bill was known to have carried. It was allegedly taken off his corpse after being shot in the back of the head by Jack McCall while he was playing poker in the Nuttal & Mann's saloon in Deadwood in 1876. It was reportedly the only gun he was carrying at the time.
It's a single action tip up Smith & Wesson No 2 Old model (sometimes called the Old Army) chambered in .32 rimfire. This was the 2nd cartridge firing pistol that S & W ever made with the No. 1 in .22 rimfire being their first. Smith and Wesson started with breech loading cartridge firearms right out of the box in 1857 and never even manufactured a percussion model. Colt was still over a decade away from marketing their their first conversion breech loader. This was because Smith and Wesson had secured the rights to the Rollin White patent for the bored through cylinder, which legally kept Colt and everyone else stuck with making percussion revolvers until the White patent ran out.
S & W introduced the larger and more powerful Model 2 in 1861 and produced them throughout the ACW continuing on until 1874 with a total of some 77k produced in total. Those with a serial number below 35k were produced before the war ended and could have been used during the conflict. Although it was never purchased by the war department, thousands were bought and carried by Union soldiers as personal backup firearms.
Here's a shot of a Union cavalryman showing off his Model 2 along with his Remington 1858 tucked in his belt.
The serial number on mine is 321XX which puts it inside the war production period. The one that Wild Bill was carrying when he was killed is serial number 299xx--so only about 2000 serial numbers earlier. Somehow it seems kind of neat to me to possess a pistol that rolled off the production line only about 2000 models later than one actually owned by Wild Bill. Hickok both worked and fought for the Union during the war in several jobs and it's not impossible that like many other Union soldiers, he bought one of the popular S & W no 2 Old model .32's during the war and kept it as a backup for the rest of his life.
After he was murdered, Hickok's personal effects were gathered by the sheriff and held, but at some point a local shop owner approached the sheriff asking about a debt that Hickok had ran up at his store. The shopkeeper was given the pistol in payment. It was subsequently handed down through the family of the store owner, but then was left by the last family owner to a close friend. There is quite bit of provenance and documentation of all of this, so most historians seem to give credence to the story.
Anyway, I remember when it came up for auction in 2013. The bidding reached $225,000 and stopped. Unfortunately the family had put a reserve on the price that was much higher, so it did not sell. It may have been sold privately afterward but I've heard nothing about it since then
Here's the story of how the family got the revolver and how it ended up for sale:
https://www.fieldandstream.com/artic...-murdered-1876
and here's the news link about it failing to sell at auction
https://www.reuters.com/article/us-u...9AH0G320131119
Another famous person of the period was connected with the model 2 besides Hickok. George Armstrong Custer who was massacred only a few months before Hickok was shot was also known to have owned a fancy cased and engraved pair of the No 2 pistols.
I also won an example of the model 1 second issue that was an even more popular ACW private purchase. S & W made over 100k of these and sold thousands to Union troops during the war They started production in 1857 having patented their new 22 short the same year and having also acquired the exclusive rights to the Rollin White patent for the bored through cylinder. That patent is what kept Colt firearms and others from being able to go to a cartridge firing revolver until many years after the war ended. The frame on this is brass, but silver plated as most were.
-and here's another tintype of two soldiers with the one on the right holding his model 1 while the one on the left has a more practical
1860 Army
Lastly, I snagged a S & W model 1 1/2, which was introduced just after the war. It combined the small size of the model 1 with the larger .32 caliber of the model 2.
Here's a shot of all three. I set out only to acquire the model 2, but the model 1 1/2 was in the same lot. Then when the model 1 was going to go for cheap, I snapped it up too. Basically I ended up with an example of all 3 of S & W's tip up models. S & W updated the model 1 and 1 1/2 later with fluted cylinders to look more modern, but soon switched from 32 rimfire to 32 centerfire and got rid of the tip up models in favor of a top break style. The box of ammo is a still sealed full container of .32 short rimfire black powder rounds manufactured by UMC/Remington around 1910. I'd be tempted to try to shoot some but I doubt the priming material is still good and if I break open the seal it decreases the collector's value
I forgot to mention that the method to load these is: release the latch at the lower front corner of the frame. The barrel then hinges up and the cylinder just drops out being only held in by two fixed pins at each end of the frame. The long pin under the barrel is the extraction system. One just turns the cylinder around and uses the pin to punch the empties out. Next, one loads the cylinder with fresh cartridges, replaces it, and closes the barrel down until the latch catches. There is no half cock, so I suppose one would leave one chamber empty and just orient it under the hammer when replacing the cylinder for safety.
Anyway, so while Hickok was famous for his pistol skills with his Colts, he left this life while carrying a little Smith and Wesson rimfire which he never had a chance to use.
Cheers
Last edited:
woodnbow
Member
- Joined
- Feb 19, 2007
- Messages
- 2,079
Yeah, double action pistols and if he carved that many notches in his grips they’d nearly be slivers!View attachment 826830
Thanks for the tip!
I enjoyed this one, published in 1926, in which the author interviews people who knew and witnessed Wild Bill in action. Just like today, dust jacket artists don’t get the guns right!
bannockburn
Member
- Joined
- Apr 24, 2007
- Messages
- 26,294
forward observer
Great post! Love the historical aspect of the three S&W revolvers you just got! An excellent job of describing how the guns worked and for including photos of the guns as well as the tintypes of the Civil War soldiers.
Great post! Love the historical aspect of the three S&W revolvers you just got! An excellent job of describing how the guns worked and for including photos of the guns as well as the tintypes of the Civil War soldiers.
Last edited:
Ephraim Kibbey
Member
Congratulations!
It is not everyday that you can complete a collecting category in one purchase.
It is not everyday that you can complete a collecting category in one purchase.
Malachi Leviticus Blue
Member
Jim,
Since the only C&B revolvers Old South lists are imported by Traditions, I would put this on par with Pepsi saying they are the best and Coke saying, no they are.
I wouldn't read any more into it than snake oil marketing.
mdauben
Member
I've got a pair of Uberti "London" (steel frame) 1851 Navy Revolvers in .36 cal. They are a hoot to shoot and I've wanted to pick up a Wild Bill style dual holster rig for them for a while. I need someone who is willing to do a custom rig, though, as I have a "custom-sized" waist!
expat_alaska
Member
Here's an honest guy who does quality leatherwork. If you contact him, tell him ASM 1860 Jim sent ya. You won't get any screamin' deals because you mentioned me. I am just returning a favor to him.
Jim
https://www.leathersmithmike.net/
Jim
https://www.leathersmithmike.net/
Mike has done some leatherwork for me. He is good and will listen to what you want.
Kevin
perldog007
Member
- Joined
- Nov 5, 2007
- Messages
- 367
My 'odd couple' is an 1858 remington Pietta .44 and PIetta 1851 Navy in .36. Both steel frame. Between round ball and various concicals That is where it's at for the way I goof off in the woods. YMMV. If I want to carry much rounds of various power and walk with a staff ( mangled right leg, I'm a limper ) then a two gun rig works for me. Also have a 1860 Pietta and a pocket remington so we have many two gun options. I like mix and match, many people like two of the same gun.
Now mostly I carry only one and a significant blade, an old 20 dollar kukri that holds a shaving edge is a favorite and some of the Cold Steel Machete Knife series. In general I get more out of a hawk or second blade than a second gun. Haven't been surrounded by game yet. Have been 'ambushed' by territorial deer walking up on them but one revolver is sufficient as in my case and others the deer don't usually stick around after the first blast even if you miss.
In the pony express they carried one revolver and spare cylinders in some cases. The famous picture of the raider with four remingtons visible suggests that some troops did carry multiple pistols. Mostly calvary I would imagine. Haven't read an account of a ground pounder wearing a brace of pistols in the revolver era yet but I'm sure there must have been one. How about that Texas senator that wore two walkers?
So yeah go for it and be safe.
Now mostly I carry only one and a significant blade, an old 20 dollar kukri that holds a shaving edge is a favorite and some of the Cold Steel Machete Knife series. In general I get more out of a hawk or second blade than a second gun. Haven't been surrounded by game yet. Have been 'ambushed' by territorial deer walking up on them but one revolver is sufficient as in my case and others the deer don't usually stick around after the first blast even if you miss.
In the pony express they carried one revolver and spare cylinders in some cases. The famous picture of the raider with four remingtons visible suggests that some troops did carry multiple pistols. Mostly calvary I would imagine. Haven't read an account of a ground pounder wearing a brace of pistols in the revolver era yet but I'm sure there must have been one. How about that Texas senator that wore two walkers?
So yeah go for it and be safe.
whughett
Member
Off thread but on the subject of “Navies” as it applies to caliber of gun. I’ve read the 1851 got it’s moniker not because of caliber but of the Naval battle scene engraved on the cylinder. As the 1851 was a 36 and the basis for the 1860 44, requested by the Army, how did the “Navy” moniker get applied to the Remingtons.
As an aside, today was range day with a brace of Colts. One Navy, One Army. No holsters or draws, just stand up target fun. Distance only 12 yards, with these quick pointing pistols.
As an aside, today was range day with a brace of Colts. One Navy, One Army. No holsters or draws, just stand up target fun. Distance only 12 yards, with these quick pointing pistols.
Attachments
My understanding is the caliber designation had nothing to do with the engraved naval battle scene, which was also put on some army revolvers, but came from the 36 Patterson being bought by the Texas navy.
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/origin-of-navy-caliber-and-army-caliber.753965/
https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/origin-of-navy-caliber-and-army-caliber.753965/
whughett
Member
History never was my strong suit. The Navy scene is engraved on the 51’s cylinder however.
Malachi Leviticus Blue
Member
The story goes that the Naval caliber .36 is derived from the Navy specifying .36 caliber and the naval scene was put on the Navy to stroke the ego of the US navy buying them.
OP
OP
Bruce D Pease
Member
I believe the engraving is of the SecondTexas Navy winning the battle of Campeche. H
I have no idea if that was to make theUS Navy want it.
I have no idea if that was to make theUS Navy want it.
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