U.S. Gov't Aiding Mexico Against Minutemen?/ It's an Outrage Merged

[Baron Holbach4]

When the lawmakers condone lawbreaking. . .

When the system is not working according to the will of the people, what other options are there other than continuing to work within the system?
What did the Founders do when they determined that changes needed to be made to the Articles of Confederation? They convened a constitutional convention and wrote up a new constitution. The final result was the government under the Articles of Confederation was peacefully abolished and a new government was put in its place based on the framework of the new Constitution.

Eventually, this will have to occur in today's political climate. The states will have to convene a constitutional convention and determine what to do with the Constitution and the federal government. There is no way the U.S. Congress is going to vote in favor of convening a constitutional convention. It will have to be up to the states to vote in favor of convening a convention and selecting state delegates to the convention.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

I wish there were some way to pass a constitutional amendment allowing secession.

Secession was never illegal to start with. Prior to the ratification of the US Constitution, every State enjoyed the sovereign power of self determination, among other sovereign powers, i.e., to govern themselves apart from any other State or association of States. When they joined the Union, they delegated to the Federal Government only a small list of their sovereign powers, retaining all others. Each sovereign power so delegated was clearly indicated in the body of the Constitution. Nowhere in the Constitution does it say that States thereby surrender the sovereign power of severing their association with the United States. Therefore, they still retain that sovereign power, and no law is violated when that power is exercised. Lincoln's actions were those of a lawless despot.

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

When the system is not working according to the will of the people, what other options are there other than continuing to work within the system?

"...whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends [i.e., of preserving liberty], it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness." - Declaration of Independence

The Founders attempted to work within the system, but when it became clear that England didn't care about their concerns, they chose not to work within the system any longer. The Founders were a bad example for your argument.

 

[Selfdfenz]

http://www.opinionjournal.com/columnists/pnoonan/?id=110008359

Excellent opinion piece from P. Noonan regarding the Rep base and continuing ed. for the party.

Bush #1 forgot voters have memories. We read his lips. He lost his job.

Bush #2 and apparently many in party leadership think passing an immigration amnesty package will make the alienate sector of their marginalized base happy. Where they miss the boat is many Americans see the current government bending over backwards to avoid enforcing existing laws which is not a good way to build confidence any new measure enacted will be enforced either.

S-

 

[longeyes]

If the citizens who still believe in political liberty continue to play by the current rules and abet the process, they will wake up to find themselves serfs in their own radically transformed nation. My own view--and I've presented it here many times in the past--is that we are naive to believe that at this point, given the entire political, social, moral, and cultural environment, we can "reform" the process to restore the concept of free citizens in control of a minimalist state. Our choice is to realize that we can opt out and start over. "Pressing re-set" need not, in theory, mean anything violent; it could mean saying, "We choose not to play by those rules any longer. Thank you, it was fun. Goodbye. We'll be starting our own nation and plan to be good neighbors."

 

[Baron Holbach4]

The Founders were a bad example for your argument.

Yes, they were not yet the Founders. They were delegates to a constitutional convention. As delegates to the constitutional convention overtly intending to make changes to the Articles of Confederation, they were working within the system. The delegates became the "Founders" after deciding on founding a new constitution in secret.

 

[xd9fan]

So will the american voter still vote for the party that is sitting on thier hands about this issue?

IMHO the next two years will tell more about americas future by the behavior of the american voter than by what politicians are going to tell you...or do.

 

[longeyes]

Who is, really, "the American voter" at this point? What is he or she voting for when the politicians no longer feel a need to "represent?"

By the time Bush leaves office, assuming he isn't run out, there will be five million MORE illegal aliens in the United States.

Suffrage, as we've known it, is becoming meaningless. We have seen the stirrings, in past Elections, of illegal voting influencing elections. In fact, this is EXACTLY--go back to the Dornan-Sanchez election in California--how we got to this the sorry pass we are in today: after Dornan's questionable loss the GOP decided to join 'em rather than fight 'em. I date The Pandering from that event. Now, with a critical mass and increasing political organization, we are going to see a major impact on voting results. Face it, my friends, NO ONE checks citizenship at the polls. By 2008 everyone will be questioning, rightly, the results of ALL American elections.

 

[longeyes]

http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3803897

article by Sara A. Carter:


"Scott James, a former Tucson agent, resigned after eight years of service in February, citing a lack of support for agents by the Department of Homeland Security.

He said that U.S. Border Patrol officials provided office space inside their headquarters to Mexican consulate officials, allowed the consulate to dictate the agents' activities, and gave the consulate information on ongoing investigations.

Such courtesies were not extended to consulate offices of other countries, James said."

 

[Baron Holbach4]

Suffrage, as we've known it, is becoming meaningless.

This might be the opportunity for the states to take measures that would restore the principles enshrined in a republic. The convening of a constitutional convention would open up the debate about how the current tricameral system of government is not working along the principles of a republic. Considering how most of the states are "shall issue," it would also open up the opportunity to frame the RKBA issue in no uncertain terms. The illegal aliens issue would also be open for debate, along with many others.

 

[Waitone]

A constitutional convention would be a large caliber bullet to the back of the republic's head. Really bad idea.

 

[Baron Holbach4]

Matters on the illegal alien issue have come to such a head that it is the federal government hindering the states' enforcement of the law. What are the options for the states when the federal government repeatedly runs roughshod over the Constitution? What are the remedies? Work with the sytem? Revise it? Abolish it? Frame a new system of government based on the Founders' principles of a republic?

 

[Baron Holbach4]

deleted

 

[Baron Holbach4]

A constitutional convention would be a large caliber bullet to the back of the republic's head. Really bad idea.

The republic that we so cherish died in 1865.

 

[Camp David]

This ratting out the Minutemen by the U.S. Border Patrol to Mexican authorities is a bit like like the Torries ratting out Paul Revere to the British. Anyone know what the Colonials did to Torries during the American Revolution? Anyone at all?

 

[Ira Aten]

Baron:
I agree, it would be a bad idea to call a constitutional convention. That is for altering the Constituion. We just need the S.O.B.'s to PAY ATTENTION to the one we have!

It is very clear. There need be no change. We merely need less lawyers in congress, and more people that have drilled water wells for a living, to serve for one term, and go the hell back home.

Carreer leeches, have caused massive hemmorage of our collective governing bodies' brain.

 

[Baron Holbach4]

It is very clear. There need be no change. We merely need less lawyers in congress, and more people that have drilled water wells for a living, to serve for one term, and go the hell back home.

The system is in dire need of an overhaul. For many years, the Supreme Court has amended the Constitution numerous times -- without any convention being called!

Yes, through the ballot changes can be made. But look at the last 50 years of change wrought by democracy in the U.S. In the next 50 years, a demographic shift in power will be so alarming, we will be wondering if we want a democracy at all. As the years roll by, who in this country has enough of a sense of history to remember what a republic was like?

 

[ArmedAmerican]

Tip-offs to Mexican government not limited to border states

FOR IMMEDIATE RELEASE:

TIP-OFFS BY US GOVERNMENT TO MEXICAN OFFICIALS ON MINUTEMEN NOT LIMITED TO BORDER

(PHOENIX, AZ) May 10, 2006 – News reports detailing how the U.S. Border Patrol has been disclosing locations and background information of Minuteman activities along the border to Mexican officials have now broadened in scope. The reports obtained from the Mexican government include an August 2005 document, "Third Report on the Activities of Vigilantes" – posted on Mexico's Secretary of Foreign Relations Web site – suggesting U.S. officials were giving out more details than plausibly required by the Vienna Convention. Part of that information included reports on activities in the interior of the United States in locations such as Illinois, Nevada, Utah, Massachusetts and Tennessee.


From the Mexican government website: http://www.sre.gob.mx/eventos/minuteman/reporte3.htm


In the new statement by the Border Patrol officially denying that any such cooperative activity with the Mexican government took place, they gave no explanation why the U.S. Border Patrol initially confirmed their own actions in the earlier report as a “cooperative agreement” with Mexico: “[Border Patrol Spokesman Mario] Martinez said Mexico's official perception of the civilian groups is that they are vigilantes, a belief the Border Patrol hoped to allay by entering into the cooperative agreement.”


According to reports in the Inland Valley Daily Bulletin today, the Chertoff aide who contacted Sara Carter, the reporter who broke this story yesterday, would not elaborate on the current Border Patrol statement to give any explanation of their earlier confirmation of the story.


From Sara Carter in today's Inland Valley Daily Bulletin:


Officials disclaim Bulletin 'tipping' report


http://www.dailybulletin.com/news/ci_3803897


EXCERPT:

Scott James, a former Tucson agent, resigned after eight years of service in February, citing a lack of support for agents by the Department of Homeland Security.


He said that U.S. Border Patrol officials provided office space inside their headquarters to Mexican consulate officials, allowed the consulate to dictate the agents' activities, and gave the consulate information on ongoing investigations.


Such courtesies were not extended to consulate offices of other countries, James said.


~END~


Chris Simcox, President of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps, issued the following statement:


“The initial reports appear to be the tip of the iceberg. The Minuteman Civil Defense Corps has been warning people that our government has no intention of taking the necessary steps to secure our borders. It now appears that the U.S. government has proactively taken steps to ensure that the open border status quo is maintained. Even if we take the latest statement from the Border Patrol denying involvement as truth, at best the report on the Mexican consulate website exposes widespread espionage, and systematic spying against free and law-abiding American citizens, on the part of the Mexican government – with or without U.S. government assistance.”

 

[The Real Hawkeye]

Yes, they were not yet the Founders. They were delegates to a constitutional convention. As delegates to the constitutional convention overtly intending to make changes to the Articles of Confederation, they were working within the system. The delegates became the "Founders" after deciding on founding a new constitution in secret.

Are you saying that some of the signers of the Declaration of Independence were not Founding Fathers?

Josiah Bartlett, William Whipple, Matthew Thornton, Samuel Adams, John Adams, John Hancock, Robert Treat Paine, Elbridge Gerry, Stephen Hopkins, William Ellery, Roger Sherman, Samuel Huntington, William Williams, Oliver Wolcott, William Floyd, Philip Livingston, Francis Lewis, Lewis Morris, Richard Stockton, John Witherspoon, Francis Hopkinson, John Hart, Abraham Clark, Robert Morris, Benjamin Rush, Benjamin Franklin, John Morton, George Clymer, James Smith, George Taylor, James Wilson, George Ross, Caesar Rodney, George Read, Thomas McKean, Samuel Chase, William Paca, Thomas Stone, Charles Carroll of Carrollton, George Wythe, Richard Henry Lee, Thomas Jefferson, Benjamin Harrison, Thomas Nelson, Jr., Francis Lightfoot Lee, Carter Braxton, William Hooper, Joseph Hewes, John Penn, Edward Rutledge, Thomas Heyward, Jr., Thomas Lynch, Jr., Arthur Middleton, Button Gwinnett, Lyman Hall, George Walton

 

[Rezin]

....Longs for the days when traitors were simply killed.

 

[longeyes]

It is very clear. There need be no change. We merely need less lawyers in congress, and more people that have drilled water wells for a living, to serve for one term, and go the hell back home.

Wishful thinking does not a Republic preserve. Let's get real. We are on the verge of seeing Congress, in arrant defiance of the public will, hand political control of this nation to alien trespassers. If that doesn't scare the bejesus out of everyone on this forum, I don't know what would. Hoping for "reform" is not going to change the toxic political reality. My view is that Congress is about to de-legitimize itself. Take that for what you will.

 

[Biker]

I'm very glad to see you back in the fray, Longeyes.
Biker

 

[308win]

It is very clear. There need be no change. We merely need less lawyers in congress, and more people that have drilled water wells for a living, to serve for one term, and go the hell back home.

Wish it were that simple. We have term limits in Ohio and they have done nothing to improve the quality of state elected officials. I believe just the opposite because the bureaucrats and lobbyists have more influence under term limits than before term limits.

IMHO, the Republican Party needs a good house cleaning to get it back to conservative roots and do away with the authoritarians who appear to control it today. As far as the Democratic Party, as long as the Kennedys, Polosies (sp?), Feinsteins, Reids, Deans, and their ilk are in control the Democratic Party is a hopeless basket case.

As for me, I am sending my Congressman and Senators a letter every week that states my position of no amnesty, no benefits, no anchor babies and I will continue to send it until it is pointless.

 

[NCP24]

Lets face it the Minutemen aren’t “team players” and they certainly aren’t following the “program”. Their open defiance is a thorn to those in power, a threat that must be dealt with accordingly. Sorry for all the doom and gloom, I just think the Minutemen are in for some hard times.

 

[longeyes]

The Minutemen will not be alone in having "hard times." It is apparent that Congress and the President want to test the patience of the American people. Bad idea.