Uberti 1873 cattleman revolver

[CraigC]

The Uberti .44Mag's are built on a larger frame. Comparable to a large frame Ruger.

Linebaugh's article pertains to Rugers, not Colt's or replicas.

At this strength level, the .44Spl is really a better choice. It has more flexibility, more strength and more efficiency. The .45Colt is a lot of wasted powder capacity if you're not using holy black.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

StrawHat, do you use any kind of wadding between the bullet and the powder? Is there any kind of converted measure for the powder such as grains or do you just fill case with a dipper? measuring powder is the reason I haven't tried it yet. Can you suggest a book with details I could purchase? All 4 of my manuals are very lacking on that subject. All bits of info are greatly appreciated. John

Not Straw Hat but I have been loading 45 Colt with Black Powder for years. Basically, you want to put in enough powder so that when the bullet is seated the powder will be compressed by the base of the bullet by about 1/16"-1/8". It is fairly simple to arrive at the proper amount of powder for any given bullet.

You do have to give some thought to the type of bullet lube you have on your bullets. Generally speaking, most modern hard bullet lubes are not compatible with Black Powder, they can form a hard caked fouling that is difficult to remove. I lube all my BP bullets with SPG.

There are a couple of powder measures on the market that are designed specifically for Black Powder. They are made so that there are no sparking parts inside, the parts that move are made of brass. Hornady makes one and Lyman makes another. I use the Lyman BP measure when I am loading 45 Colt, 45 Schofield, 44-40, 44 Russian and 38-40 with Black Powder. I also use the Lee dipper set sometimes when loading Black Powder if I have not previously set up the powder measure for a particular cartridge. The Lee dipper set is very inexpensive.

 

[gp911]

I have a 3.5" birdshead model. I love it but I stick to a 255@1000 load as a maximum because it's not built as beefy as a Blackhawk. Great gun, good points made about fixed sights though.

 

[BCRider]

As mentioned the regular lube on commercially cast and lubed bullets isn't black powder friendly. You can still try it out by two options.

One is to boil out the existing lube and simply finger fill the grooves with a BP friendly lube when you load them.

The other way is to switch out the black powder for Pyrodex P loose powder. The Pyrodex P is a modern propellant powder which is volume equivalent to black powder. So you still fill the case to achieve the light compression of the powder mentioned earlier. And it still makes a big cloud of smoke and sparks. But the Pyrodex is modern lube friendly.

Note that in both cases that black and Pyrodex leaves a corrosive fouling that needs to be cleaned away with hot water before the more normal solvent and oiling. A lot of folks don't want to have to deal with that while others don't mind and it's worth the fun to be had from shooting historical loadings.

Note that if you do try some black or Pyrodex loads that you MUST fill the casing to where there is the suggested compression. It's one of those situations where you MUST NOT leave any airgap. An airgap in black powder loads allows the powder to shake around and it gets set off all at once which produces a dangerously high pressure spike. Same with Pyrodex. Fill and compress is the key with these powders. If you really must shoot with a lower power charge then you use a filler and separator cards. But that's more fussing than it's worth for most folks. So either fill 'em up and squeeze it as mentioned or go with a different smokeless powder for lower power loadings.

Otherwise there are a number of good regular smokeless powders that you can use which do not require wads or packing. Unique seems to be one which has a strong following in this regard. And Trail Boss is another. The Trail Boss in particular is very "fluffy" so it fills the casing and totally precludes any risk of double charging.

Reloading for handguns isn't as fussy as you seem to think it might be. Oh sure, you want to ensure that you're not overfilling. But it's simply not 1/10 gn critical. So a simple dipper measure is just fine.

A nice way to do this when you start out is to make or buy a 50 spot loading block and do each of the press and loading operations separately so you can double check each stage. With this method you can measure out the powder and then use a flashlight to check for the correct level of powder in each case before setting and crimping the bullets. That produces a near zero risk method.

The best part is that it REALLY cuts down on the cost of shooting these bigger bore handguns. And not only that but you get the loads you want instead of being limited to what is out there on the shelves.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Howdy Again

Good information from BCRider.

Two comments I will make is that when I was pan lubing regular Smokeless bullets for BP I did not boil the lube away. I would place the bullets on their sides on a cookie sheet covered with paper towels. Into the oven for 30 minutes at 200 degrees F. The lube melts and the paper towels wicks it away. Kept me from crudding up one of the wife's pots with hardened lube.

If you are going to load a small amount, try two loading blocks, not one. Get a pair of blocks with 50 holes each. Place one block on each side of the press. start with 50 shells on one side in one block. Run each shell through each loading process, transferring it from the full block to the empty block. This way you can keep track of exactly which shells have had what done to them. Increases safety a great deal, especially when dispensing powder. Each case moves from the 'empty' block to the 'loaded' block. Good insurance against double charging any case. I actually have about 6 or 8 such blocks that I made up out of hardwood. When I am loading on my old single stage press, if I am loading up say 100 rounds, I use three blocks, so that there is always one block available for the brass as it goes through each process.

Not necessary when I am loading on one of my progressive presses.

 

[crooked stripe]

Thank you all, fantastic information. This thread has given me the confidence to try it. I do use Trail Boss and Unique. Both powders have been successful for me. When I first looked into this my lgs sold me Hodgdon Pyrodex type P muzzleloading propellant. It states it is FFFG equivalent. By the sounds of BCRider I have the right powder, correct? If so now all I need is the time. Will wait for a reply before I give it a try. Thanks to all, John

 

[StrawHat]

Personally, if you are going to use a substitute, stay with Unique. It is still a top performer. Otherwise, it is tough to improve on the original Black powder.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Just because you have something on hand does not always mean it is the right choice.

If you use Pyrodex you still must use a bullet with Black Powder compatible bullet lube.

If you want to try a sub, try APP, it does not require special bullet lube, can be used with conventional hard cast bullets and conventional bullet lube. The same can be said about Hodgdon's 777, except it is about 15% more powerful than real Black Powder.

Here is a good summary of the various Black Powder substitutes and their characteristics.

http://www.curtrich.com/bpsubsdummies.html

 

[BCRider]

DJ, the local guys that put me onto the Pyrodex P say that smokeless lube is OK. And so far the barrel hasn't had any issues with the smokeless wax based lube with the Pyrodex. And I figure I'd spot it pretty quick since I have to swab and clean that evening along with the C&B revolvers.

But perhaps the stuff that the local boolit casting outfit uses is a smidge different than some others. The folks that run it are well aware that a lot of the local BP fans use their products. So they may have taken that into account when they chose which lube to use. I guess it's the old case of YMMV.

Certainly your post about this made me look around a bit with google and I did find some information saying that Pyrodex needs a BP style lube or it'll leave a gummy residue. Which makes me think all the more that the local boolit folks are using a compromise lube that works with either.

And that bit about the cookie sheet is a great idea. I'm single but I still don't like the idea of crudding up a perfectly good pot. And that's something I never thought about.

Sure as shootin' melting the lube out of the grooves is going to cause a stink so it's still best to do it when SWMBO is out for something. And open the windows wide to boot.

A layer of aluminium foil under the paper toweling will also aid in making the cleanup of the evidence of wrong doing a lot more easy...

Unique is certainly a great and versitile powder. But it lacks the black powder like soft push and the clouds of smoke and sparks. The only downside that I can see to Pyrodex as a BP sub is that it produces a slightly tan/brown tinged smoke instead of snowy white ilke proper BP.

 

[Paul7]

I bought an Uberti Old West finish recently and after about 150 rounds it went south on me. The cylinder spins no matter what the hammer position. The seller is giving me a refund.

:banghead:

 

[35 Whelen]

I bought a couple of Uberti's recently myself. I ultimately wanted .44 Specials but found a really good deal on a 4 3/4" in 44/40. I bought a new .44 Special cylinder for it and had my first .44 Special! Next I ordered a 5 1/2" Uberti in .44 Special:



I LOVE this caliber. Loading a home-cast 250 gr. SWC, I get over 900 fps and the empty cases fall out of the chambers under their own weight. Hopefully over Christmas I'll be able to do some moe load development. I think 1100 fps with this bullet is a fairly reasonable expectation from all I've read, but time will tell!

35W

 

[BBQLS1]

A 255 grain semi-wadcutter traveling 900-1000 fps on a broadside shot will easily kill a deer. You don't need a hot round.

And most anything else with a hard cast bullet.

Howdy

I have owned a couple of Uberti Cattlemen over the years. The one I have now is about 15 years old, so I cannot speak for what they are making today. I just ran downstairs and measured the cylinder throats. Using my calipers, the throats were running around .453-.454. However, a caliper is not the ideal tool for measuring cylinder throats.

The old standard is, the correct bullet for the throats will just pass through the throats with a little bit of pressure. If it falls right through, it is too small, if it needs a lot of pressure to be shoved through, it is too large. A .452 bullet (which is standard for 45 Colt) pushed through just right with light pressure.

Regarding pushing 44 Mag pressures with a gun built with basically the same dimensions as the SAA, forget it! Perhaps you have read about Elmer blowing up a Colt with high pressure loads. That's why he went down to 44 Special when he eventually developed the 44 Mag. Any 45 caliber revolver is going to have thinner cylinder walls than the same gun chambered for 44 caliber. The Uberti guns are basically dimensionally the same as a Colt, they are not designed for hot loads. Personally, I would never push any revolver built along the lines of the SAA with anything more than SAAMI Max 14,000 psi loads. These guns are not 'old model' Vaqueros or Blackhawks, they are not as massive.

Do not confuse a 250 grain bullet moving at 800 fps, the factory standard load for many years, with 'cowboy powder puffs'. Far from it. That load was the most powerful factory load for revolvers until the advent of the 357 Magnum in 1935. It is still plenty potent.

Regarding accuracy and fixed sights. Do not confuse Point of Impact vs Point of Aim with accuracy. Accuracy consists of how small a group a gun will make, not where it puts the group. A 45 Colt with proper ammunition is plenty accurate. It will make a small group. Kentucky windage and experience will put the group where it needs to be if it is not exactly where it is desired.

I got "Sixguns" about a month ago. It really sounded like he was getting better accuracy and that's why he went to .44 Special.

 

[CraigC]

The cylinder spins no matter what the hammer position. The seller is giving me a refund.

Sounds like a broken spring, an easy fix.

 

[Driftwood Johnson]

Sure as shootin' melting the lube out of the grooves is going to cause a stink so it's still best to do it when SWMBO is out for something. And open the windows wide to boot.

A layer of aluminium foil under the paper toweling will also aid in making the cleanup of the evidence of wrong doing a lot more easy...

Not really. I used to do it all the time when SWMBO was home. Does not really stink at all, just a bit of a waxy odor. I have my own cookie sheets and strainers and a couple of other utensils that I use for reloading, but if you fold up a couple of layers of paper towels on top of the cookie sheet, they will soak up all the melted lube and no tin foil is needed.

Regarding a free spinning cylinder, most likely one of the legs of the split trigger/bolt spring has broken. Probably the most common failure in any Colt style single action revolver. It probably should not have broken after only 150 rounds, but that is a known weakness of the old SAA. You just never know when the bolt/trigger spring or the hand spring is going to snap. Just part of the design. And the main reason Bill Ruger substituted coil springs for the old flat type springs when he brought out his first single action revolver in the early 1950s. Very simple fix, just replace the spring. There are some tricks too, to helping make sure the spring does not snap again.

 

[Hammerdown77]

Just a word of caution about melting smokeless lube out of bullets by baking them in the oven (which works great, as mentioned, on a cookie sheet with several layers of paper towels). Those bullets stay hot a while, unless you dump 'em in water or something. You certainly don't want to dump a bunch in your hand to admire how clean and shiny they are. Don't ask me how I know this...

 

[Clark]

crooked stripe
Uberti 1873 cattleman revolver
I have been looking at these revolvers and would really like to have one. Info is slim on their website as far as loadings go. Would it be possible to load some bullets for deer hunting that the single action would handle?

CAUTION: The following post includes loading data beyond currently published maximums for this cartridge. USE AT YOUR OWN RISK. Neither the writer, The High Road, nor the staff of THR assume any liability for any damage or injury resulting from use of this information.
I have a 1970s Iver Johnson imported Uberti manufactured Cattleman.
Since I got it in 2004, I have only shot 24 gr H110 250 gr XTP 1.6" OAL roll crimp into cannelure.
It has a 4.75" barrel, but to enter the barrel length into Quickload, I need to add the cylinder length = 6.5".
Quickload predicts 21.4kpsi 1220 fps
Uberti chronographs at 1220 fps which matches the Quickload prediction for velocity.
The thinnest chamber wall in a Ruger Blackhawk is .059".
The thinnest chamber wall in the Cattleman is .044"
QL predicts that Speer published loads for the Blackhawk are as much as 31.7kpsi.
What does it all mean?
a) There is a way to load the 45 Colt Cattleman so it can make enough power for shooting a deer.
b) I think 21.4 kpsi is a reasonable pressure for long term use of my 45 Colt Cattleman.

 

[CraigC]

I wouldn't use that load in an Italian replica of any kind. You're one grain over what the hottest hotrodder I know of uses in a modern Colt New Frontier. I don't think that Quickload pressure estimate is accurate either. It's probably more like 24-25,000psi and that's not even a good idea in a modern Colt or domestic USFA. Velocities in the 1050-1100fps range are considered safe territory but again, that's in Colt's and USFA's, not Italian replicas and most definitely not 40yr old replicas.

 

[Clark]

After 8 years of shooting my 40 year old Cattleman, I did have a failure this month.
The trigger spring/ bolt spring broke and the cylinder was free spinning as nothing lifted the bolt into the cylinder slots.

When I took the revolver apart, someone had replaced 4 of the 6-32 screws with 6.-48 screws.

I had to buy the screws from Brownells as 6-32 screws are even more rare than 6-48 screws. 6-48 screws are used in scope base mounting and are not standard.
http://www.brownells.com/schematics/Uberti-/1873-Cattleman-S-A--sid325.aspx

 

[StrawHat]

...a) There is a way to load the 45 Colt Cattleman so it can make enough power for shooting a deer...

Clark, blackpowder and a 260 grain lead bullet will kill any deer in North America or wherever you would like to hunt them.

 

[crooked stripe]

Got one. Will fill you in later when I have more time. Quite excited. John

 

[Hondo 60]

If you find it in a reputable reloading manual you'll be fine as long as it isn't a "Ruger Only" load.

 

[Clark]

I do not use reloading manuals any more. I own ~50 of them.

 

[CraigC]

I do not use reloading manuals any more. I own ~50 of them. Just to make fun of them.

Yeah, I think I'd rather get pressure tested load data from reputable manual than some anonymous internet character using QuickLoad.

 

[Clark]

CraigC
The Uberti .44Mag's are built on a larger frame. Comparable to a large frame Ruger.
Linebaugh's article pertains to Rugers, not Colt's or replicas.
At this strength level, the .44Spl is really a better choice. It has more flexibility, more strength and more efficiency. The .45Colt is a lot of wasted powder capacity if you're not using holy black.

I have tested a lot of revolvers to destruction.
The only frame that ever changed was on a Colt Agent Aluminum frame.

The patterns I see over and over are:
1) The break tops get loose latches from stretching the latch pin hole into oblong.
2) The solid frame split the cylinders and sometimes a secondary failure of the top strap
3) The cylinder rotation starts out loose on Rugers, but can get loose on Smiths from damage to the bolt slots in the cylinders and looseness in the bolts in the frame. Post 1907 Colts stay tight.
---------------
The wasted powder capacity of the 45 Colt can cause inaccuracy. The best cure I have found for the inaccuracy of wimpy 45Colt loads is Unique powder.

 

[crooked stripe]

1873 Cattleman

This is what I picked out. Little confused, the box says Stoeger 0469 Cattleman Birdshead OM. (old model or black powder frame) Im not understanding what they are trying to tell me. They sure don't explain much.I guess they expect you to know before you buy. Maybe someone here can help. It does say it can shoot only commercially loaded cartridges that have been loaded inaccordance with SAAMI-C.I.P. standards.