Uberti (current production) .44 New Model Army Cylinder Ream Failure.

Discussion in 'Blackpowder' started by grter, May 26, 2020.

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  1. grter

    grter Member

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    The tool was the Manson Precision cylinder throating reamer with the pilot packs in .45 caliber. None of the pilots fit the cylinder. The smallest .448 pilot only fit the to top portion of the chamers but would not go deep enough to allow reaming.To make matters worse one of the pilots was incorrectly marked as .4485 when it was probably .4510. It seems that the current Uberti cylinders are a smaller diameter toward the bottom and I am not talking about the nipple chambers or anywhere near either.

    This may be a great product for cartridge guns but my impression is it is a total no go for current made cap and ball revolvers. The smallest pilot does not even begin to enter the chambers of current made Pietta cylinders. The selection of pilots and a single reamer size (.4525) is a joke when it comes to cap and ball revolvers (I find it just plain limiting either way) which can have groove to groove diameters of .454 (an older standard) or more also even less than .4525.

    Chambers that are smaller than groove to groove diameter of bore still seems to be a problem with both Pietta and Uberti although I have read some models or special higher end production lines may have properly matching chambers to bore.

    Despite all the advice read and knowing better than to even dream of trying, an attempt at reaming without a pilot yielded exactly what was warned. This was a off center crappy ream despite all attempts at finesse.

    To top it off an attempt was made to hammer the smallest .448 pilot all way down into the cylinder in hopes of using it to guide the reamer the rest of the way down hopefully correcting most of the mess made by the attempt to ream without a pilot.

    That successfully wedged the pilot partially down the cylinder locking it there for good. All attempts to hammer it out from behind through the nipple hole failed.. Two hours of hammering and not a budge.

    Thankfully spare cylinders are a perfect drop in these days.

    Shopping at the site that sells these Brownells and Manson is a total nightmare. Their websites are lousy and searching for a product is like solving a riddle with no straight clues or answers.

    A more complete set of pilots and a wider selection of .45 caliber reamers (453 and .454 seems to solve a wide range of bore sizes) would have saved lots of frustration.

    The futile attempts in using these tools the wrong way is not their fault but lack of motivation to openly offer tools that allow more flexibility in work rather than tying the customers hands is.

    Do not get this kit (.45 caliber) for current or any cap and ball revolvers unless you are sure they are the correct size. It's on you to figure it out and my impression is these kits are not good for current production Pietta and Urberti cap and ball revolvers.

    The .38 cal kit is a cartridge gun only kit and looking at the reamer specs (0.358) will reveal that immediately.

    You would think that insiders in the firearms industry would want to help the buyer make an educated purchase if their products have a narrow amount of use.
     
  2. rodwha

    rodwha Member

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    I’ve often read the Brownells hand reamer will work, but once in a while I see a post like yours. Seems the only way to go is to send it in to someone who can do it correctly.
     
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  3. grter

    grter Member

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    From what i read reaming out the Cylinder chambers can actually make accuracy worse or not improve it at all if you don't ream to at least the groove to groove diameter of the barrel. Until you take it up to at least groove to groove diameter but no more than 0.003 over it's a crap shoot with odds against you if it's not wide enough.

    On the other hand if it's too wide accuracy gets bad also and if it's grossly oversize I think we can all figure out that the gun can explode.

    The bore has to be slugged and measurements made to determine which sizes of reamers will work. I can only find 0.4525 it's nice have if anything but I am unsure if it's large enough for all or most cap and ball revolvers.

    The cutter seems to work easily enough but try as you will try as you might without a pilot I would gather almost nobody will be able to center it good enough for a proper cut.

    This brings me the pilots. If only it had the right sized pilot things would have probably went well or well enough but not one pilot in the entire pilot kit nor the smallest included pilot that comes installed on the cutter were small enough to reach low enough in the chambers to allow the cutter to make contact to cut. The chambers are deep enough too but every pilot was too big.

    I don't know why they don't offer more pilot sizes at least and more cutter sizes would be nice too but they don't, at least not on the web sites. I read that the cutter company will make custom size cutters and pilots but you have to call and place a custom order which probably means waiting a long time.

    Another thing to keep in mind is sometimes these out of spec revolvers shoot very accurately. I think that is the exception rather than the rule. Most probably shoot alright as is but having a gun capable of excellent accuracy is just more fun.
     
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  4. DocRock

    DocRock member

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    Far too much is made of matching cylinder throats and barrel groove depth. Pure lead is somewhat elastic and obturation will occur. Don't get too worked up about .488" throats and . 452" grooves.

    EDIT: as noted below, this should read .448" rather than .488" :D
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
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  5. grter

    grter Member

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    I would not ever want to take it up to 0.488 but I am assuming that was a typo and you meant 0.448.

    I don't know if far too much is made of correcting cylinders to match barrel groove depth but a lot of people claim otherwise and I have actually seen youtube videos of before and after shots. The revolvers do seem to have an improvement in accuracy as well as maintaining more stable grouping.

    I think we can both agree that the best thing to do would be to shoot the revolver first and if it's accurate enough for you then it would be wise to not change a thing.

    Regardless of all that having a tack driver will always in my opinion be well worth it and always much more fun :):):)
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
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  6. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    grter, some of the things you've said are mentioned in the excerpts below.
    All this doesn't mean much to me, but THR member rifle who was a gunsmith offered this advice:

    "...You can work in a spec. in chamber size anywhere from having the balls sized by the chambers to equal the barrels groove diameter or go to .001 over or .002 in. over or .003 .in over. I've gone as much as .006 in. over the groove diameter in a coupla my guns.
    It depends on the gun and what you want from it. A coupla my Navy Colts had grooves measured at .383 and .385 and I reamed them both with a .388 chucking reamer. Four flute,straight flute chucking reams. They come in sizes .001 and even sometimes .0005 steps. Like get a .454 or a .4545 reamer. Mostly they come in steps of .001 inch...." --->>> SEE POST #12 https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/groove-diameters-larger-than-chamber-diameters.521676/#post-6486742

    "...With the mention of making sure the reamer or drill is aligned properly when enlarging a chamber.....it would be a good idea to have things lined up well. That can get to be too much to mess with if you don't have a milling machine that is within a coupla .0001's.
    There may be small enough adjustable reamers made that would work by hand. They woul follow the hole so to speak.
    If you had a gunsmith do the reaming you ave to be careful and ask how they do it. I think there would be some that would "just eyeball it". You know...because it's just a cap&baller. You'd want assurance the person would actually indicate it off the hole "as they say". If they say that ask them exactly how they do it. Some know that could be a way to do it but never really ever did it and never actually will.............
    ...........Anyway...gunsmiths and machinists can drill holes where they go. Not all of them can center up on an existing hole.
    Some people indicate off the edge of the hole by finding the widest point on one x or y axis. Then go so many .001's to what the center would be accounting for the width of the indicator tip. The move on the other axis and find the widest point and go so many .001's to what the center should be. Do that over and over and every time you're supposed to get better centered. Some machinists say they go three times and then figure that's centered enough and drill or ream. You need a milling table for that and you can get them for a drill press but then it still needs set proper perpendicular to the chuck and all.
    I think an adjustable hand reamer is about the cheapest best way to get it proper enough.
    The best cheap way is to have Manson or Clymer make a piloted reamer for you. Of course the dang tapered chambers the guns have so often would foul that plan.
    I guess a gunsmith that's reasonable is the best bet if...they will do it right.
    I guess that the best way is to buy a gun with the chambers already the right diameter for the barrel.
    A cap&baller can still shoot real well with .003-.004 in. undersized chambers...." SEE POST #20 --->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/groove-diameters-larger-than-chamber-diameters.521676/#post-6487121
     
    Last edited: May 27, 2020
  7. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    Cincinnati Slim reamed his SS 1858 chambers using an adjustable hand reamer.
    He mentioned using a number 2A reamer that cost $20.
    He only needed to grind down 1/4 inch off the front so that it could go deep enough into the chamber.
    Some blades broke off so he only finished 3 chambers, but he felt that it worked well after testing it at Friendship.
    The photo of his reamer looks like this one from Home Depot. --->>> https://www.homedepot.com/p/Drill-America-2-A-High-Speed-Steel-Adjustable-Hand-Reamer-with-Range-7-16-in-to-15-32-in-DWRRADJ2-A/307851648?mtc=Shopping-B-F_D25T-G-D25T-25_9_PORTABLE_POWER-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-PortablePower_PLA&cm_mmc=Shopping-B-F_D25T-G-D25T-25_9_PORTABLE_POWER-Multi-NA-Feed-PLA-NA-NA-PortablePower_PLA-71700000034127218-58700003933021540-92700053252310110&gclid=EAIaIQobChMI-Zz3sbHU6QIVRMDICh0NpQUKEAQYBCABEgISw_D_BwE&gclsrc=aw.ds

    This is the link to his thread.--->>> https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/i-reamed-my-cylinders-to-match-the-bores.281460/#post-3474994
     
  8. Malachi Leviticus Blue

    Malachi Leviticus Blue Member

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    I think if I ended up in the OP's shoes so to speak, holding a set of reamers and pilots that don't fit I might be compelled to try to turn down the pilot so it would fit, but I'm not sure that would be much better (if at all) then trying to drive it in with a hammer.
     
  9. BigBoomD

    BigBoomD Member

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    I reamed and then honed mine as they measured .446 and the thing shot all over the place. Went to .452 if I remember right. Which would have been right at the groove diameter. It shoots WAY more precisely. It did shoot .454 balls ok but I opted to go to .457 to get the larger engagement area on the rifling... no idea if that bit improved anything.
     
  10. BigBoomD

    BigBoomD Member

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    Should clarify I did it on a mill, truing up the cylinder first, then using a dial indicator to sweep around the inside to get perfectly centered on each chamber. I also found the chambers to be tapered... but very very parallel to each other. Pietta .44.
     
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  11. grter

    grter Member

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    The taper is not visible by eye. The chamber walls are smooth but when a pilot goes in just enough to lay beneath the mouth of the cylinder chamber in each chamber but will slide down no further with no wobble one can figure there is a very gradual taper in each chamber.

    Aside from reading about original civil war revolvers having tapered cylinders, obvious tapers visible by eye not gradually by thousands of an inch (I think ?,) I have never read about this issue happening in replicas.

    I now understand this gradual chamber tapering by thousands of an inch that cannot be eyeballed but is perfect for preventing people from using piloted hand reamers successfully is good possibility in modern production replicas.

    I don't know the answer to that but from what I have read here so far that is my impression.

    If thats the case a machine shop type setup and possibly expensive and space consuming machinery with the know how to use it is the only answer and a good gunsmith that doesn't dribble marketing garbage out of the sides of his/her mouth is the most practical way.

    I have read that good honest gunsmiths are hard to find and the good honest ones are so swamped that it will take forever to get simple work done although it's not always the case I think it's a good possibility.

    I suppose one can slug bore and give the measurements to the gunsmith with his/her cylinder I can't help but think that not sending in the whole gun to the gunsmith is akin to asking him/her to work blind and risking a bad job if your requested specifications are not 100% accurate or some unnoticed quirk that would normally be detected if the gun smith had the whole gun to examine arises.

    Someone like me would pick a gunsmith as first choice because it is unlikely a lay person is going to be as good at the job as a trained and well practiced professional, very unlikely.

    Gunsmiths should be supported but the practical obstacles to dealing with gunsmiths are real.
     
    Last edited: May 28, 2020
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  12. arcticap

    arcticap Member

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    This custom muzzle loading shop in Arkansas advertises that they do precision chamber reaming for optimum accuracy.
    I can't vouch for their work but they've been around for a long time.

    Home page: --->>> https://www.muzzleloadershop.com

    Services page: --->>> https://www.muzzleloadershop.com/services-2/
    ⊕ Ream and Chamfer Revolver Chambers (Precision Dimensions for Optimum Accuracy)
     
  13. foureyeshenry

    foureyeshenry Member

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    Chambercast ? So you can find out the measurements?
     
  14. paul harm

    paul harm Member

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    Go over to the 1858 Remington forum and I believe there's plenty of discussions about chamber size and or reaming chambers.
     
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