un informed FFL holders make me crazy

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There are some personality types that just dont get any favors regardless of legality.

In the same vein, a lot of FFLs wont send out a copy of their license untill they have seen you in person just to check you out. The idea is that they dont want to get stuck with the gun if it turns out that you cant pass a background check or arent 18 (or if your just someone they dont want to sell a gun to).
 
Out of curiosity ...

Was it illegal to fax a copy of an FFL, or was it illegal to accept it?

If you fax a copy of your license, have you broken the law? Wasn't it up to the license holder sending the gun to make sure all paperwork is in order before they ship? Or does BATF hold both license holders responsible in a situation like this (not something that would surprise me)?

How about if the sending license holder won't ship the gun based on receiving a faxed copy of the license rather than a signed hard copy? In that case, have any laws been broken at all?

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I have no doubt in my mind most FFL holders follow the law as best as they know how, to avoid losing that license (and possibly their living). It makes no sense at all for a single sale. Especially a single sale that's only going to net $20-$25. I can also see how they would be jaded by both dumb questions, and claims from people who saw on the internet that the law had changed. If I had an FFL, I'd only want to believe "official" publications sent by BATF.

Now ... with all that said - If it were still illegal to fax their license, were the FFL holders that CD contacted really at a risk if they allowed his request and just faxed the license? Wouldn't the worst to them have been a refusal of shipment from the other end?
 
I think in the past one of the issues has been duplication and alteration of license copies. That was behind the requirement of having a signed in ink, in a color other than black, original copy of a license mailed to the other FFL holder before shipping. With modern copiers and photoshop programs, even with changes to the appearance of the license about six-eight years ago, it has been too easy to alter a license and receive shipments to a non-licensee.

The change recently has been the availability of the EZ-Check system where information on a license can be verified from the ATF website. Since this has been available, I have even checked the original copies to make sure they are correct. With this ability to double check, accepting a faxed copy is less of a risk.

One consideration is that, given just a fax number by a customer, how do I know where the fax is going? If I mail to another FFL holder, I know it's going to a legitimate address. I don't know who or where that fax number might be. I could do some checking, but if I have to take a half hour to go around the horn to make sure everything is on the up and up, then I probably can't do $20 transfers, there is just too much of a time investment. For a regular customer, there may be a return on the investment down the road and everyone will win. In a situation as first stated, where the regular dealer isn't available and someone is insistent that the process be worked through for a one time transfer, it's not worth the time investment.

Call me paranoid, but I'm always hesitant when someone insists I do something outside the normal routine, and wants it done immediately.
 
Both the "faxing an FFL license" and the "buying receiver to put full-auto parts in" issue have exactly the same problem (hence the relevance, CD - slow down and observe before jumping on people who have been here a lot longer than you). The laws regarding firearms sales, and the laws regarding automatic firearms, are very complicated. Worse, the BATFE is the interpreter of those laws, and is authorized (at least tacitly and practically) to basically create new laws as it sees fit. Both the laws and the bureaucrats have "prohibition" as their basic principle, so if anything is in question the answer is presumably "no". Even worse, the penalties for violating laws or bureaucrats, in regards to firearms, is huge and ranges from pulling licenses to decades in prison - all for administrative mistakes.

As such, I have to sympathize with the uncooperative FFLs (as far as this thread topic goes). I just got my FFL newsletter yesterday, and even then I'm skittish about what it says because I don't have the actual text of the law and official ruling handy. We know that faxes and emailed scans are the same thing - but one agent who thinks otherwise could toss someone in jail for 5 years for using the "wrong" one, or even for finding something objectionable about using a fax. Likewise, the gov't is EXTREMELY skittish about machineguns, the laws and bureaucracy are hideously complicated and obfuscated, and unless you're working directly with an explicitly licensed FFL dealer, I don't blame any non-C3 dealer for terminating a potential sale the moment any customer says anything about "converting it to full auto". Remember Ruby Ridge and Waco? those were purely about Class-III administrative violations; Randy Weaver didn't do the paperwork for his short-barreled-shotgun, and Koresh might not have paid a similar $200 fee.

Firearms rules & regs are really messed up. Don't be surprised when an FFL errs on the side of caution, or hasn't gotten the latest update. Don't criticize them until YOU have tried reading those screwed-up documents that will kick your :cuss: if you so much as abbreviate "yes" to "Y".
 
I just ticked a guy off last week. He had a faxed FFL to me but I will not accept it because I can not read the numbers or experation date. He sent me a nasty gram and told me were to stick my Sig.

I have zero obligation to accept ANY faxed FFL. My cheapie fax is not going to print a legible FFL out and I do not see a need to buy a more expensive one. Well maybe if I do get a lot of requests. ;)
 
The idea is that they dont want to get stuck with the gun if it turns out that you cant pass a background check or arent 18

:D It is my dream that someday a gun will arrive at my door that I didn't pay for and that no one else is legally allowed to leave with.

I found out about the fax thing a couple months ago at an ATF seminar, and I still didn't really want to act on it until I got the newsletter that put it in writing. I have no plans of ending up in federal prison by acting on something an ATF agent said or something I read on the internet or something that a customer insists is true.

Having said that, I've also written to the ATF to try to convince them that turning a piece of paper into digital data and sending it over a phone line and then turning it back into a piece of paper at the other end is pretty much the same as scanning, emailing, and printing. I have not yet received a respose.
 
Having said that, I've also written to the ATF to try to convince them that turning a piece of paper into digital data and sending it over a phone line and then turning it back into a piece of paper at the other end is pretty much the same as scanning, emailing, and printing. I have not yet received a respose.

Especuially when you consider that you can fax scanned images anyways.
 
I don't know JACK about faxing junk...

but i think its SAD when you can go to the website... that is meant to be the official website... of the BATF... that has all the rules as current as they can be... that SAYS that a PRIVATE individual can mail via Fedex or UPS (butnot the USPS) a handgun to a FFL in a different state for x-fer to a person in said state... and 9 of 10 FFL's don't know it and won't do it...

meanwhile - the 1 of 10 FFL's are calling the rest of them stupid, siting they do it all the time, as its ok under the rules.

IF... and i state IF... FFL is your JOB... as part of your BUSINESS, you would think you would know it up and down, left and right... up to the minute... etc etc... you'd read about it more often than any THR post... you'd keep abreast of the ins and outs....

i shouldn't have to go searching for a FFL that knows the rules and will complete a transaction that is lawfull. The FFL should know what is lawfull and be able to PROVE ME WRONG IN AN INSTANT because he should be so much more up on things than *I* am that its not funny... instead of just being wrong.

seriously... its come to the point that i won't bother w/ a state to state x-fer just cause i dont' want to have to track down a FFL the few times i do it that knows the rules...(ok - unless i see something i really want...roflrofl)

bleh

J/Tharg!
 
but carrying the firearm out the front door before handing it to the purchaser, is.

because outside the store is where the customer has the ammo so he can load up- go back in and shoot up the place.

I love the idiotic non-logic that stores like walmart use to develop policies.

It is my dream that someday a gun will arrive at my door that I didn't pay for and that no one else is legally allowed to leave with.

isnt that everyone's dream? :D
 
well, i dunno about the rest, but i do know that pawnshops often hire employees who love to spout fictitious laws. years ago 'fore i turned 21 one told me i couldn't handle the mini-14 i was interested in because it had a folding stock and the pistol grip made it a pistol. i turned around, walked out the door and bought an ak elsewhere. sometimes a dealer that knows diddly gets me a good deal on a gun, though.
 
Tharg, I've had the same problem. I went to 3 FFL holders before I got The Bullet Trap in Plano to take a transfer from a guy out of state (great guys, they didn't know if it was legal so they, you know, ASKED someone else and READ the rules on the ATF website instead of just spouting a bunch of know-it-all BS like the other gunstore owners).

Sorry FFL guys, but sometimes it seems like many of you don't really want to make money and keep customers.

I don't have a problem with high prices, the free market sorts itself out. It's just all the misinformation, ignorance, and general crabbiness that get to me sometimes.

Some of y'all are great though, and you're the ones I go back to and give my business to.
 
Some Dealers will not accept a out of state weapon from a individual. That is up to the Dealer.

I will but it must have a copy of the persons DL. I make it clear to both parties that if a gun comes to me from a individual without a DL or FFL I will not transfer it. I will not send it back to the individual either. The gun will be turned over to ATF for disposal if they do not send the required paperwork.

So far this has worked for me. I get a copy of the DL for my file and a current address of the seller in my log book.
 
Anybody call thier local ATF branch and ask them about the change, for faxing an FFL?
I would like to know what everyone else has been told.
Here in Florida, my local ATF inspector told me that I needed to get a copy of the Drivers License, of the person that signed the FFL. To verify the signature.

Anybody else get this answer? If not what were you told?

Thanks
 
ATF newsletter does not mention it. I fail to see the point in it since I never received a DL with a hard copy of a FFL to compare before the change.

I think right now I will keep doing things the old fashoned way. Inked copy for a inked copy or no transaction. 10.00 is not worth the hassel.
 
I swear you guys must all be from the same area as me

3 local gun stores for me. I call them Grumpy oldman 1, Grumpy old man 2, and Senile old man.

Grumpy old man 1
Prices are sky high and he gets extremely defensive if you question this. Pulls gun laws out of his ass. He finally went out of business because nobody would buy his overpriced crap and or put up with the attitude. I think he's probably convinced Walmart put him out of business. $3.60 for a sleeve of small pistol primers. Come on!!!

Grumpy old man 2
Prices are high but better than 1. Also pulls gun laws out of his ass. How he gets those around the Ithaca Mag10 that's crammed up there I don't know. He's on chemo so I guess he has an excuse.

Senile Old Man
Admits he doesn't know laws instead of pulling them out of his ass (the fact that he should know is another thing...). Prices are reasonable except that nothing has a price marked on it, he has to look every price up. If you wait 10 minutes and ask again, the price may have gone up or down 50 bucks or so.

I think the biggest problem with Gun stores is that there isn't enough new blood coming into the business. Grumpy old men are... grumpy old men. Think about talking to your Grandfather about things. "New cars are crap" "The internet is ruining this country" blah. blah. blah.
 
As a FFL holder and also poor, I dont own a fax machine so I will not accept them either.

Its still less expensive for me to get a copy of my FFL and a stamp than to pay for a fax.
 
Well, it looks like I am not alone in my feeling here, regardless of weather I doctored the post to fit the posting criteria,

In my opinion, the FFL's that re not "Up to Speed" will just stay small buisness that dont grow, and they probably blame Wal Mart, instead of their own ignorance/attitude.


On the other hand, I do understand the reluctance to try something really new, and Jeopardize your livleyhood for 50 bux...but that is the buisness you chose, otherwise just go sell swingsets and be safe,lol


alot of the posts above me mirror things I have seen(grumpy old bastards that think they know it all,lol) thanks for the support guys..:)


In regards to the guys that "dont want to spend the $$$ on a good fax machine", they are cheaper than the PC you are using now for fun, so upgrade your buisness just a teeny bit and join the 20'th century (we can wait on the 21's century for a bit,lol)
 
I'm still waiting for the ATF to issue a "clarification" regarding the "you may now accept fax copies of FFLs" ruling.

The clarification: "Yes, you may accept the fax copy, but only if the original holder signs it in ink after your fax machine has printed it out." :evil:
 
And the flip side of the coin is...

"Well, it looks like I am not alone in my feeling here, regardless of weather [sic] I doctored the post to fit the posting criteria, "

Meaning you lied. How else does a handgun become a shotgun? :scrutiny:

In my opinion, the FFL's that [a]re not "Up to Speed" will just stay small buisness [sic] that don[']t grow, and they probably blame Wal Mart, instead of their own ignorance/attitude."

Perhaps the attitude you still complain of is the direct consequence of dealing with arrogant, disingenous, self-styled "experts." :uhoh:

"On the other hand, I do understand the reluctance to try something really new, and Jeopardize your livleyhood [sic] for 50 bux [sic]...but that is the buisness [sic] you chose, otherwise ju"st [sic] go sell swingsets and be safe,lol"

And you are equally free to take your "buisness" elsewhere. Bon chance.....
 
(deleted) - unnecessary and inflamatory, sorry, lost my head
 
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Try again

"Tory - sorry, you forgot the (lol) after each statement."

There was only ONE "lol" after any of the statements I quoted and I included it. So much for your transparent rationalization.

Tell us again about your handgun-cum-shotgun or whatever your story is now.... :scrutiny:
 
In regards to the guys that "dont want to spend the $$$ on a good fax machine", they are cheaper than the PC you are using now for fun, so upgrade your buisness just a teeny bit and join the 20'th century (we can wait on the 21's century for a bit,lol)

Assuming this is aimed at least in general in my direction:
my puter is 5 years old,
I deal guns on the side in addition to my "real" job,
I dont have a landline,
and I have NO intention of paying for one any time in the near future.

AND its STILL cheaper to get a copy ($0.10) and stamp ($0.37) than to spend a buck or more to receive a FAX.

I ONLY accept USPS Money orders anyway, so its NOT like I am going to hold up a transfer because of this.

so........................... :neener:
 
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