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Undercut, stippling and other unimportant pistol stuff...

Discussion in 'Handguns: Autoloaders' started by the count, Jul 3, 2018.

  1. the count

    the count Member

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    ...and once again I am the devil's advocate!

    In 97 percent of the semi auto pistol videos on youtube I watch an disproportionate amount of time is spent talking about the texture, the undercut, the stippling. As if that will make you survive an actual gunfight. So I am talking about combat, self defense and law enforcement situations, not ultra precision target shooting.

    You want to survive an actual combat / shootout situation you better know who to hold on to your, or maybe one of your (dead) opponents weapons, while hiding behind cover or moving about. Standing up straight with your arms stretched out is nothing! Paper target don't shoot back! Would you not take a shot because the trigger has some creep or the reset is not optimal?! Duh, of course you would so you got to train that way also. Now I understand not everybody has access to action pistol events or live in countries where it is illegal to shoot at paper targets resembling a human torso (this is not a joke).

    In my rather large gun collection I have grips with ultra aggressive texture and others with flat, totally smooth aluminum panels. Actual difference while action shooing (no more combat for me): Zero. Never dropped or had a gun slip, even in 100 plus degree temp. with sweat pouring down my body. Now I am sure that there are a bunch of manly men out there who all think they know everything about guns because they have one (1). So bring it on...
     
    Last edited: Jul 3, 2018
  2. Winkman822

    Winkman822 Member

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    I for one don't thing that 360 stippling and undercuts, etc. are critically necessary, but they do have their place. I'm not a Glock guy by any stretch of the imagination, though I do own one, I would probably bring it out to shoot more often if there were a little bit of an undercut on the trigger guard as between the way that the finger grooves force my hand onto the gun and the way that I grip the gun (try to get as high up as possible), I tend to get a little bit of a blister over any extended period of shooting with that gun. Now, having said that, would that minor inconvenience that I experience on the firing line prevent me from using that gun to put rounds on an assailant? Not at all.

    With respect to stippling, I think it can be helpful on the front strap and back strap of a polymer framed pistol since some of them can get rather slippery if you're someone who gets really schweddy. Remember, when that gun is concealed and against your body, if you sweat on the pistol, it will be a little slippery and you won't get as good a purchase on it when drawing. Does that mean that you'll drop the gun or inadvertently fling it at someone when trying to draw under stress on a hot day, schweddy day? Not necessarily. If you stipple the front and back strap of the gun however, it'll be helpful in getting a good firm, solid grip on the gun under stress. Lets spin it back for some years, is it necessary to have a checkered frontstrap and mainspring housing on a 1911? No, but it sure does help. Do you need running shoes to run? No, but it helps. The way that I see it, stuff like a little bit of relief under the trigger guard on some guns and strategic stippling on a polymer framed gun falls into that category, not required but helpful. At the end of the day, it's still going to come down to the training and discipline of the person operating the gun that will determine whether it is effectively deployed.

    Personally, on my carry guns where I feel that a little extra bite is needed in the grip, I use Talon Grip tape or some skate tape strategically placed. Not a permanent modification, and in the event that I do decide to trade or sell off a gun, I won't have eviscerated the gun's value with some basement work bench hack gunsmithing job.

    End of the day, all you need is a reliable gun that has good visible sights that you are comfortable using and with which you are a competent shooter. If you need to modify the gun to shoot it well, do it. If you don't need to tweak it and can shoot it well as is, great. At the end of the day, gun modifications are a personal preference same as what a person elects to carry.
     
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  3. the count

    the count Member

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    Words of wisdom! :)
     
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  4. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    I think there are a lot of YouTube posters that spend more time holding their guns than shooting them. As a result the minutia of ergonomics and handling seem overly important.

    To me, if it feels decent, and the stippling is adequate that the gun isn't jumping around in my hands, I'm happy.
     
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  5. JDR

    JDR Member

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    I once looked at a custom G19 that had the backstrap reshaped, the finger grooves removed and a fairly nice stippling job on the grip. Then I saw that the stippling continued on the bottom of the trigger guard!:eek: What was this previous owner thinking? This one would have to cause one horrible case of Glock knuckle!

    I like the fact that my HK P2000 is rough textured on the frontstrap & backstrap only. The sides of the grip have only minor texturing. I’ve always thought that this was all that was necessary since this grip treatment makes it a heck of a lot easier to IWB carry this one.
     
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  6. the count

    the count Member

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    Thanks! I forgot about those pesky finger grooves that seem to be a huge deal :)
     
  7. Winkman822

    Winkman822 Member

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    Finger grooves can be an issue for many depending on the size of the individual's hand. Personally, I have smallish hands and with the way that I grip a pistol, the grooves on a Glock don't really line up to be in between my fingers, so it is pretty uncomfortable to shoot them. That said, an HK P30, Walther PPQ or P99 grooves don't bother me quite like the Glock, but then again, they're a little less pronounced. Again returning to the theme of my first post, is it necessary to smooth finger grooves off the grip? No, but for some it can help quite a bit. Bottom line is that there are folks out there that like to tune and modify their guns, just the same as there are folks out there who like to tune and modify their cars. Does it objectively improve the car? Not necessarily. Does it subjectively improve the car for that particular owner? Yes, otherwise the modification wouldn't have been made. Same with gun mods. Does XYZ modification objectively improve the gun's function? Not necessarily. Does it subjectively improve its function for that particular owner who made the modification? More likely than not, it does, hence the modification.

    I for one don't do a lot of modification to a gun that I keep for self defense. That said, there are some things that will occasionally be modified. In the case of a Glock, I like a little bit of an extended magazine catch on the Gen 3 and earlier guns as I have a little bit of trouble positively interfacing with them in their factory, snag free, flat configuration. Likewise for the slide stop. The solution for me, replace with the Tango Down parts that are a very slightly extended variety. Other than things like that, sights are the only major change that will be made if the gun doesn't have good sights that are easy for my eyes to pick up quickly without having to work too hard.
     
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  8. JDR

    JDR Member

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    I’ve taken my new Glock 19X out shooting a few times so far. So I’m starting to prefer the Glock grip without finger grooves although I can shoot any of the Gen3’s (17&19) and the Gen4 21 pretty well. So I’ll live with the finger grooves on those.
     
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  9. mdThanatos

    mdThanatos Member

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    I think some that have issues with the undercut causing pain in their finger/knuckle, not entirely sure there is a tactical reason behind that modification.
     
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  10. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    It's a carry over from the time when the 1911 platform ruled action pistol shooting

    It isn't a "tactical reason", it also comes from the world of action pistol shooting where the shooter wanted the highest grip possible and wanted to attain it consistently during a rapid presentation from the holster
     
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  11. 340PD

    340PD Member

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    Good topic and I was really impressed with the undercut and stippling on my Sig P365. Somebody was paying attention when they designed that frame.
     
  12. JeffG

    JeffG Member

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    I think a good proportion of gun mods mentioned here are intended to evoke the WOW factor with other shooters. For the most part for me it's address the gun, grip it and shoot it, as is. If I don't like it, it doesn't stick around. I have shot all manner of modded guns, some good some horrific. The National Match 1911's I shot in the Marine Corps had the front straps gouged with a 3 corner chisel to raise curls of metal to improve grip. You never lost your grip, but at times they would make your shooting hand sore from holding them. A master Glock armorer once made the comment to me in regards to mods; "If you don't like Glocks, choose a different gun..."
     
  13. 9mmepiphany

    9mmepiphany Moderator

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    It is always interesting to trace the origin of popular mods and what was their intended purpose. Many have become "standard" without anyone questioning their reason for existing...and how that reason might no longer exist

    The two that immediately come to mind are the squared-off front of trigger guards and forward cocking serrations on the slide
     
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  14. Jonesy814

    Jonesy814 Member

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    Just because some bozo on you tube says it's a must have mod, doesn't make it so. There is no requirement needed to be a you tube expert other than having a video camera and internet connection, or knowing someone who does.
     
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  15. JohnBiltz

    JohnBiltz Member

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    I undercut my trigger guard on my Glock 26's. Its not done directly for tactical reasons. But it does make it easier and more pleasant to practice. I don't see how that is a bad thing. It certainly was not done to impress other people. Other than sights its the only mod done to my guns.
     
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  16. Hangingrock

    Hangingrock Member

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    My first firing experience was with the 1911A1 that was when the double action revolver was dominate in citizen and law enforcement applications. At that point there were numerous aftermarket modifications viewed as enhancements but I stayed stock.

    With the transition/dominance in the current market place of the semiautomatic pistol there are modification/enhancements being promoted/marketed also. Personally I stay OEM with in reason. I didn't acquire Glock pistols until Gen3 with the only modification/aftermarket items being sights and KKM barrels with conventional rifling. With S&W MP9 Gen1 pistols the only modification/aftermarket items being Apex Duty/Carry triggering system and night sights.

    As for Red-Dot sighting system, I'm not there yet and doubt that I'll go there.
     
  17. the count

    the count Member

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    Well, to each his own of course. And I have been guilty of paying for not really necessary mods as well.
    But Caveat Emptor, many guys on Youtube get sponsored so they obviously have to find stuff to talk about.
    If I had 3 guns, say all Glocks, to chose one from in a Go To War situation...with one being full stock and the others with mods to the internals/barrel guess which one I would pick?
     
  18. JohnBiltz

    JohnBiltz Member

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    Personally, I'd take one with an undercut trigger.
     
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  19. the count

    the count Member

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    I would take the stock Glock. Even have a real world explanation why. Once had a 17 with an aftermarket barrel. Pretty accurate, chamber with full support. Does anybody see the problem? The tight chamber had some reload ammo fail to load because of a very slight bulge. Glock chambers have no problem with that. So in a GTW situation where you might have to use whatever ammo is available this one single failure to feed might be your death sentance.
     
  20. Winkman822

    Winkman822 Member

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    I really don't go mucking about with internals, but as I stated above, there are a couple of things that I will change out (i.e. mag catch, slide stop and sights on a Glock) just to make the gun work better for my particular hand size...and the extended controls that I use aren't drastically oversized competition type parts, they're just big enough to make the gun more practically functional for me. I don't muck around with triggers or other internal parts unless the parts need replacing for wear and tear or in an effort to make the gun do what it's supposed to do...go bang when the trigger is pressed. Then again, I'm not looking to shave tenths of seconds off of split times. I'm of the mentality that I'd rather shoot well than shoot fast. If I shoot well and apply good marksmanship principles, I'll shoot plenty fast to serve my needs.
     
  21. JohnBiltz

    JohnBiltz Member

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    When first in the Army I was the statistical average, five foot nine and 165 pounds. One big advantage of being average is that things tend to fit. Several years later, the Army went from the M16A1 to the A2. One of the things they did was to put a longer stock on it. I never shot the A2 as well as the A1. Despite it being more accurate shooting a more accurate round. The stock was just a little too long for me. Over the years the statistical average had shifted to the average height being 5 foot ten. And so they went to a longer stock. One too long for me. I was of course not the only one who had this complaint. Sometimes mods are silly. Sometimes mods are not nonsense, they make a difference.
     
  22. 460Shooter

    460Shooter Member

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    I will say I do find the ergos of my VP9 excellent with the largest backstrap and right side panel in. Though the stippling on my HK45 is superior for grip. And I do put Nill grips on my revolvers because average revolver grips are too small for me.

    A carbine I just bought not that long ago had a tiny little stock on it. I had to add a larger stock, an extended butt pad, and a spacer with a vertical adjustment.

    YouTube is a weird place and everyone who posts videos has a little different emphasis on things. I do tend to agree with the OP that ergos are overstated, because everyone is a little different. If a Youtuber really finds a gun fits them well, that's fine to mention, but it doesn't mean it will fit everyone well. That's one of the reasons I like Hickock45. If something feels good in his hand he will say so, but he also acknowledges that he is like 6'8" and has very large hands.

    Trigger undercuts are nice to have IMO, but again, how much discussion do they require?

    Bottom line, YouTube is a foul place. It takes time to figure out which gun channels share relevant info to you.
     
  23. thecarfarmer

    thecarfarmer Member

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    X2!

    My Glocks are all "carry" guns. I prefer adding the slightly bigger slide release buttons on the G2-3; they all got the factory "-" connector, because I like them better.

    Neither of these modifications is a very large change from the original configuration, nor should they affect reliability in any way. Or so I would hope...

    Being reliable and 'accurate enough' are more important to me than anything else

    And, if I were to pick up a completely stock Glock, and have to use it in earnest, I believe the circumstances of being in a real gunfight would totally eclipse the small change in feel!

    But, it's nice to have a gun be as enjoyable as practical while practicing.

    Speaking of which, I need to do some more of...
     
  24. Good Ol' Boy

    Good Ol' Boy Member

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    For me the only thing I care about as far as shootability with a pistol is the trigger. If I can manage the trigger everything else is good.

    Everyone should be trying guns before buying if its to be used strictly for SD.
     
  25. tarosean

    tarosean Member

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    Do whatever you want to your property, is my opinion.. I wouldn't buy or do a lot of things. Doesn't mean I am going to denigrate someone who would.
     
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