United Methodist Church 2008 Anti-Gun Resolution

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The Methodist Church today is not the Methodist Church that your parents and grandparents attended. This is why I'm an Ex-Methodist. The gun control stance is only one problem I have with their "new and improved" doctrine. I won't expand the discussion any further, but other issues are even harder for me to digest. My current pastor encourages CCW to any church function. There are some real anti-Christian nuts in the world. I have family that still attends a United Methodist Church , but I could never go back and support the bunch of liberals that run the Conference. They are only worried about their pensions and not the Gospel.
 
I "am" a methodist myself. Not anymore. Already drafting up a letter to my church. What is even funnier is that my aunt most likely will be opening it and reading it. Going to make some ripples with it perhaps.
 
I was Baptized and grew up in the Methodist church. It became the UMC, and in particular, as I became more aware of the workings of the Board on Church and Society, I became more and more aware that the UMC had nothing to do with the Body of Christ.

I, because of morality, had to quit that organization.
 
I am a United Methodist, and a Trustee of our church. My good neighbor is a Methodist and active in their church. My wife's family is Methodist.

We are all gun owners.

If it came to a showdown between the UMC and our families, we'll just go another route.

As things stand, I don't tell the Church how many Bibles they are allowed to purchase per month (And in the wrong hands, just like guns, Bibles have caused millions of deaths) if they don't ask my how many guns I buy per month.
 
I am atheist.

Funny how religious figures preach against the use of weapons when their own "savior" was in favor of them.
 
It's junk like this that makes me consider myself a nonreligious believer. I usually don't buy into churches playing secular special interest groups.
 
Selective interprations of the bible based on selective translation of cherry picked verses is a rather poor way to determine God's will IMHO.

Further their premises for supporting gun control are fataly flawed, as we here are all too aware.

Lastly, it seems they are outside their sphere with advocation of gun control policies. They likely deserve to lose their tax status, not that it will happen

I likely would not be a member of such a church. I believe that the right to defend my self and my loved ones and thus to own firearms is an inalienable right (others call them God given rights) and thus no church made by men is sanctioned in their attempts to deprive me of it.

Fact is if you are tithing to an organization like that you are supporting their agenda. Giving money for God's work, charity, etc is one thing. Given money to liberals who wish to desicrate the constituion is some thing very different.
 
Sounds like this branch of the UMC is headed for suicide by vote. Too bad. There was a day when men were men. I long for those days, as a young man.
 
Selective interprations of the bible based on selective translation of cherry picked verus is a rather poor way to determine God's will IMHO.

I think you just accurately described organized religion in general. All of them.
 
A humble reminder from someone that is not Methodist and doesn't plan to become one.

-There are lots of people, organizations, and groups that are ignorant as to the actual uses and effects of firearms. I wish it was only limited to the the Methodist church, but it isn't.

Let's not be too hard on this particular religion just because someone decided to make a statement on firearms. Behind every single stupid, ignorant, assinine statement regarding guns and the desire for gun control is someone that just doesn't get it, regardless of their religion.

JMHO.
 
thanks for posting this. i'm in the market for a new church and the united methodists were recomended to me by a couple people. i realize that this is a congragation in pa voting in suport of a local pa house bill, but if this sort of view and action is indicative of the united methodists as a whole, perhaps i should look elswhere.
 
Posted by Jakk280Rem
thanks for posting this. i'm in the market for a new church and the united methodists were recomended to me by a couple people. i realize that this is a congragation in pa voting in suport of a local pa house bill, but if this sort of view and action is indicative of the united methodists as a whole, perhaps i should look elswhere.

I was a member of the UMC briefly during the 70's, when I was too young to know better. They were uber liberal then, and they've only gotten worse over the years.

Definitely look elsewhere. ;)
 
People who pick this or that in any religion, creed, or lack thereof if they are not into 'organized religion' or book from the Bible, Qu'ran-Koran, OT, NT, etc. and only SEE that part of their 'religious book' are wrong in my opinion.

There are MANY 'religions' that are anti gun including some who even state that assault weapons are bad. Do your research on that if you want to learn.

I don't belong to an organized religion or 'Church' anymore although I am a Christian. I believe in God, I read the OT/NT Bible daily, I pray, I have read many other religious books including all kinds of books over the years and I am PRO GUN big time. I was raised as an old fashioned/strict Lutheran and my late husband was raised the same way. We were married in a Lutheran Church. I was married 2 years ago by an old fashioned minister in a simple ceremony. I have some Roman Catholic and 2 Greek Orthodox in my family background including a R.C. nun - Sister of Charity - now dead.

I have found that the UMC and many other churches and/or religions have gone super left wing, for lack of a better word, in the sense of being anti gun and/or really apostate in their 'preaching' and dogma. I find some of the Other side... super... well... I don't know how to put this now so I better not! I found some of the ones that preach "STUFF" from the pulpits from the super L and super R sides are just as vile and wrong in their so called preaching and APOSTATE talk that it makes me want to SCREAM! In other words the other side that worships at the ___ CABAL and talks about war mongering and KILL this or that people or 'religion' because God told them to is a bunch of !@#$%^&*()_+!!! THEY are just as bad in their so called 'Christian' (NOT!) faith as in any other religion. RELIGIOUS ZEALOTS come in all religions including Christian ones and they support extreme R and extreme L wing political sides of things! NO offense.

By the way, it was THOU SHALL NOT MURDER. Murder is different than killing someone in self defense. Self defense is just that - self defense! It does not mean going OUT to kill someone just to kill or kill ANY religious group or TYPE of nationality or invade a country and KILL people who never attacked YOU or your country! Big difference... there is a lot of blood on people's hands and that includes all of us in THIS world. USA included and some past, present and most likely future administrations! Pearl Harbor and that sort of WAR is a different matter.

Many religions have BLOOD on their hands, in their history and trust me it is not just Muslims as some uneducated people want to think or believe. There are good and bad people in ALL religions and hopefully the bad ones will see their mistakes, repent and not keep killing, screwing UP because some Leader tells them something else. NO offense.

I know many good people in ALL religions including ones who do NOT believe or THINK the way that I do. Ones that questioned their faith, religious upbringing, God, etc. I know many good Christians, Muslims, Jews, Hindus, some agnostics, some atheists, etc. I GREW UP exposed to people 'different from me, my faith and nationality'. People from all over the world, educated ones and not so educated ones, legal immigrants, escaped from wars, tyrants, from the universities, my late parents and mentors friends, etc. I did not get raised with a tunnel vision attitude. I did get raised with a good attitude about America and her freedoms!

I have ALWAYS thought that since the tax code needed to be changed drastically that ALL people should have to PAY THEIR SHARE in a simple, flat tax fee and that INCLUDES religious groups, charities, churches, temples, mosques, etc.

I do not like those TV preachers and others of their 'ILK' who think that ONLY their type is the BEST kind while they preach hatred, more killing, more wars, promote some candidate in ANY party for Congress, the President or any other political position. They claim to be good x, y or z INSERT religion here and they are FAR from it with their hatred of ALL people in some faiths because NOT all of those people are bad. There are good and bad in those religions or lack thereof as there are GOOD and BAD in gun owners, Americans, any other nationality, any profession, etc.!

Just because a person believes in GOD does not mean that God thinks or told them to roll over and play dead if attacked. God wants the BEST for all of us and if that includes self defense, unless you are a true Quaker or Pacifist which is OK with ME if that is what YOU really BELIEVE, so be it... you will have to defend yourself, etc. from a threat - stop the threat and attack!

Sincerely,

Catherine


http://www.biblegateway.com/passage/?search=Matthew 22&version=9

Matthew 22 (King James Version)

36 Master, which is the great commandment in the law?

37 Jesus said unto him, Thou shalt love the Lord thy God with all thy heart, and with all thy soul, and with all thy mind.

38 This is the first and great commandment.

39 And the second is like unto it, Thou shalt love thy neighbour as thyself.

40 On these two commandments hang all the law and the prophets.
 
Wow it looks like there are a lot of ex-Methodists here... One of the reasons I posted this is because I was surprised the UMC was so anti-gun.

I don't plan to leave the denomination over this mainly because the Church I attend is mostly conservative, and my Pastor is a very nice and intelligent guy that gives very good sermons.

That being said, I'll really have to reconsider giving money in the normal way, since it will most likely be given to the UMC PA Main Conference (and used to support their anti-gun agenda).


I guess stuff like this is one of the reasons that so many Churches have been splitting from the main church and becoming non-denominational.
 
Well, I have no interest in "bashing" the UMC. There are proceedural issues with which I disagree, but it was the 2nd Amendment issues that were the straw that broke the camel's back.

The great thing about Freedom of Religion is that a person who has taken efforts to read and interpret themselves-- rather than simply be taught-- can find the religion that seems to fit their own worldview.

That is not to say you can find a "Religion of Convienance," but there are some doctrinal issues in many religions that I simply believe is not the correct interpretation.

I can live with some variance between views, but when I KNOW that my money is being given in an effort to infringe on my Bill of Rights, I draw a BIG line in the sand.

It was told to me in no uncertain terms by our bishop that I could not even specify that my funds NOT go to certain activities of the church. He said that we were all UMC and so were the funds. There would be no directed funds beyond special programs in addition to the normal funding.

This was followed by my resignation.


One thing that I would caution on this thread, however, is that this is not an opportunity to "bash" religion. If you don't want to be religious-- great. I'll respect that view. But my respect ends with the moment this attacks religion as a whole. Tough thing about respect. It ain't-- unless it goes both ways. Don't give it, don't get it.

I'm not directing that at anyone. It's cautionary at best. I've just seen the road these threads seem to go down.



-- John
 
Those enjoying bashing religion or Christianity, feel free. I can take it just fine and God isn't hurt at all.

However, those who would like to paint with such a broad brush really do show ignorance. There are denominations which seek, earnestly, to know the meaning of the Bible and accept it, no matter what we might want. I type this as a defense, but not of a specific denomination. I chose mine because as mentioned before, it focuses on the fundamental elements of the Bible and, as a major corner stone of its foundation, uses it as its sole ultimate authority. Yeah, we got creeds, but even our creeds are to be taken as tradition but if a conflict is discovered between them and the Bible, the Bible is the only correct source. Our confession specifically states this. Every line used has scriptural justification but it is noted that it is not infallible as it was penned by men, the Bible is the only true foundation of belief. All other writings may be beneficial or guiding, but they are not inspired.

Okay, folks, this is only to defend a faith, not to force it on anyone else. But keep in mind, people sin. People are part of the Body of Christ. Churches can be filled with hypocrites and false teachers. That does not harm God. Those people will get their punishment at due time.

The reformation occurred because of corruption in the Roman and French church. This is not a modern day condemnation so any Roman Catholics please know I only discuss history. My own denomination's break off occurred for the same reason. The Presbyterian belief, as reflected by the reformation (called the Reformed Faith) prior to Arminius's protest and the beginning of his belief now called Arminism, was solidly biblical based (and based on biblical texts from the original Greek and Hebrew).

Alas, in the US, as early as the 1830's, heretical beliefs crept in and the church began to take political action. The denomination split just prior to the War Between the States, and the southern Presbyterian Church was initially called the Presbyterian Church of the Confederate States, but later became just Presbyterian Church in the United States. This southern church was not for slavery and the split was due to political action of the northern church (it demanded all churches support the US).

Now, this conservative branch began to liberalize, changing the wording in original confessions, coming up with new ideas that change fundamental beliefs and created strong conflict (including condemning God for Christ's death on the cross in the 1960's). Heck, even Billy Graham's wife was denied a voice at the time because she was too conservative.

The PCA formed to return to the original belief of the original reformation. Again, as one who believes in an originalist interpretation of the Constitution, I do not believe the Bible is a living, breathing book that changes to meet society's demands. Quite the opposite. It means what it means regardless of time, just as the Constitution, the Bible does not evolve but remains completely and utterly relevant to today.

The point to this is again, not to try to convert any on this forum. You want to discuss deeply over PM's, I will do so and happily try to convert anyone. The point, merely, is to point out that the Body of Christ is real and I am one of them. I defend that, as there have been some harsh comments about us, which are misdirected.

And for anyone who wishes to quote Leviticus to condemn, remember that was established for the Jews to worship God as well as to maintain a legal code for their survival. All of that was to show that no matter what rules that are given, man still falls and cannot save himself. They are in the Bible and should remain their, but the Bible does not tell us we must stone to death the prostitute or the adulteress. It told them for that time, which by the way, is more than 4 thousand years ago. It remains for us to study to learn that man falls regardless of what rules and how specific they are that God provides. You will note that the New Testament lacks such specific rules. You cannot save yourself with a bunch of specific rules. Heck, even the 10 Commandments cannot be followed without sin.

The current political actions of the UMC, as well as PCUSA, United Church of Chirst, and other "liberal" denominations, are not biblically based and fall well outside the direction given within. I say that as a proud son and grand son of Methodists. My Great Great Grandfather AP Peacock was a Methodist circuit rider. My Great Grandfather Martin was also a riding Methodist minister. My grandparents went to Otter Creek Methodist Church, and my brother-in-law and family, as well as many friends are Methodists. Heck, I even know the history of the church and actually love the reason they chose the name. I do also believe that there are other denominations that focus too narrowly on a few lines in the Bible and so throw the baby out with the bath water. I will NOT say that the PCA is the only good denomination. I will say I chose PCA because it most closely fit how I think a Body of Christ should believe, which is as close to an originalist interpretation as I have found. I don't mind folks who are lured by the Arminian belief. I do know there are many denominations that are earnest in their belief and are not merely "social Christians" who see the Church as an organ of social activism (though the Church is to work in many socially active ways and minister to the poor and hungry). Even Non-Denominationals (which in reality is the denomination of nondenomination) can stand with me in faith.

And even I recognize the sins done by those of the Reformed Faith during the early days, when Rome was sending armies into Switzerland and fighting Reformed forces. History is what it is and man is sinful.

There are elements of organized religion that are rightfully condemned. I'll stand with folks who do so. But, do not throw us all out with said bath water.

This is NOT, again, to discuss specific religious topics, merely to defend myself, as folks have chosen to snipe, and set what record as one like me can be set.

Ash
 
Wow it looks like there are a lot of ex-Methodists here...

And this is why the central leadership of this church has policies like this
--no one left in the membership to vote against it. (BTW, I am very well
aware of how voting delegates are sent to these conferences ;) ) There
are other policies in the UMC which have come up for votes over the last
few years which have been controversial but would not be appropriate to
discuss on THR. Anti-gun policies and and these other policies all tie in
together, though.

This is the reason why we have a complete mess on the secular side of
things in America --all the real conservatives have left government and
politics. The handful who actually remain are shut out by the MSM.
 
1) The Sixth Commandment, “Thou Shall not kill,” not only forbids killing; it also implies
that we are obligated to prevent harm and to preserve life and the well-being of human
life;

Sorry, had to stop reading there. Pretty sad when a church can't even get it right...
 
Oh, the problem is they choose the language knowing it is against the actual texts. The point is, those texts are not relevant to the argument and so shall be ignored.

Getting involved with politics is nothing new. There were those who used statements of how slaves are to act as a means to justify slavery in the US. Yet, that ignores the actual statements to slaves. Slaves were to act in certain ways towards their masters not as a justification for slavery, but as a witness of a believer. Believers are to act in certain ways regardless of their lot in life, whether they are wealthy or poor, free or slave.

Yet, the Bible's text can be twisted in many ways. It is dishonest, but it happens all the time.

Ash
 
TBL,

I hear ya. Without getting to wrapped up in technical details, the idea of being able to do something is not as easy as you'd think.

On a seperate issue, our bishop told our church that we were NOT a "Congressional" Methodist Church-- meaning that decisions were not made based upon congressional vote.

Per the proceedures of the UMC, it is a representative body. If you get representatives who vote their own views as opposed to that of the congregation, there is very little remedy.

We had such a situation. My father-- who was Chair of the Board was not even able to have a sit-down with the central authority.

Failure of any voting rights or intervention of the bishop caused a 50% membership loss.

My father is a Baptist deacon now.


My point is that it is important to realize how procedure can be used to usurp the desires of the "masses."


I refuse to be a member of a church that is not interested in the wishes of its congregation.


-- John
 
I read the book, study multiple sources, and develop my own thoughts. I can also attend everything from Catholic churches to mega-nondenoms.

If your faith and religion starts and ends with somebody else's limited view, you're in for disappointment. Don't be surprised when you find somebody (or organization) you disagree with. It goes hand in hand with leadership.
 
Per the proceedures of the UMC, it is a representative body. If you get representatives who vote their own views as opposed to that of the congregation, there is very little remedy.

Bingo. And that's excactly what happened in the UMC with some other
hot issues. Not too long ago prior to one conference our "representative"
was quietly picked w/o full congregational participation who then proceded
to vote her own way on some issues. A week later she came back from
conference and informed us how and why she voted.

We had some highly active families who had been there for years leave
immediately as a result. A couple months after that our "representative" bid
us all farewell and moved away to a different state. Damage done. The
church had difficulty re-building its attendance numbers and sat around
scratching its head wondering why. I could tell the pastor was having a
very difficult time balancing the political differences between the members.
He was in poor health and was trying to keep everyone happy.

I stayed on for a quite a while after all this. The families who left would ask
me why I stayed on. I said when I left there would be no one left to
express dissent and the salt of the earth was necessary. In the end it
became a losing battle. When the pastor passed away last year, I left.

Again, you see these dynamics in the secular USA. However, you can only
leave so many US states before the same process at the federal level gets
you.

At a certain point you see that the active majority in a place is just flat out
wrong and you can't be a part of it. Isn't this the history of change in
Christianity? ;)
 
After many years, a lone shipwreck survivor was rescued from a remote island. His rescuers took note of the various structures that he had erected and he explained as follows: "This hut is my home. There's my storage building. This is my church."

The rescuers asked: "What about that other building?"

The survivor answered: "Oh, that's where I used to go to church."
 
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