Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Tallbald, Aug 26, 2014.
Clays is a faster powder than Universal.
The line was made up of Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays in that order for speed of the powder. So many reloaders were confused by the use of the Clays name in all 3 Hodgdon as been slowly moving away from using the Clays name in all but the first Clays powder.
They are now calling them Clays, International and Universal dropping the Clays ID from the second 2 powders.
Go here: http://hodgdon.com/shotpist.html and you can read it for yourself.
International (clays) has very few handgun applications. All were originally shotshell powders but Clays and Universal have spread into pistol loading.
Clays = AS30N
International "Clays" = AS50N
Universal "Clays" = AP70N
Your Universal is their clone of Alliant Unique. Loads are very close to each other, but not exact so follow load recipes to begin with. Universal burns more completely than Unique, but also costs more. Just like Unique, Universal is a very versatile powder for handgun loads.
That's what the label says: "Universal" in big black letters, with the "Clays" sort of camouflaged as white letters in a green band underneath the "Universal".
I date my powders when I buy them, and this bottle has been sitting for a while as it's dated 1999.
The burning speed of the stuff is close to that of Unique. I plan to use up this bottle in the near future, and loads from the middle of the handbook range for Unique will work fine.
Example: Lyman loads for the 356402 cast 124-grain bullet run from 4.0 Unique to 6.0 grains of Unique. I'll load 5.0 of Universal and call it good.... it's just for plinkers, after all.
Hodgdon's decision-making in naming these powders is about the DUMBEST merchandising I have ever seen, considering the potential safety problems involved.
I would be careful, looking at the 9mm load data for both show a wide variation between the two. With most bullets Unique is a full grain or more higher than the Universal loads. With a 115gr Speer GDHP bullet the top load with Unique is 6.3gr and with Universal it's only 5.0gr. The starting charge of Unique is bigger than the Max charge of Universal.
I always thought they were much closer in charge weights but i guess it depends upon the cartridge. In the .38 Special with a 158gr lead bullet the two powders are only .2gr apart. With a 125gr XTP bullet the difference is slightly higher @ .5gr...
"Clays" and "Universal" are two entirely different powders. Both are Hodgdon** powders.
The fact that one says "Clays Technology" in small letters does not make the same as "CLAYS" powder.
Don't confuse the two.
CLAYS has a burn rate of 6.7 -- very fast
UNIVERSAL, on the other hand, burns at ~2.4
** Hodgdon in the sense that they are imported by Hogdon from Thales Australia Defense Industries (ADI)
ADI Powder/Hodgdon naming
Trail Boss.............Trial Boss
AR2213SC...........H4831 / H4831SC
Note also that ADI had a disruption in their production of "AD70N" a few months back, and won't be restarting until 2014.
Why do I care? Because AD70N = Universal
postscript: ADI also makes IMR8208.
Bottom Line? If the Aussies go down, we are in a world of hurt.
Think of it like Bob, Sue, and William Jones. All from the Jones family, but very different from each other.
White label with blue text and trim and the word Clays below Universal white on blue. Should you have what I have pictured you would use the Hodgdon Universal load data.
The container should have some load data shown, note they (in small print) point out the loads shown are Max Load Data.
Yeah, they could have done better with their naming conventions. Much. much better.
Actually only 2 made decent pistol powders. From the beginning Hodgdon has strongly recommended against using International for any handgun applications. Right now I don't think they supply load data for any handgun cartridge. International has been reported to spike pressures, sometimes very high spikes. If the powder company distributing the powder doesn't supply any handgun data for that powder there is usually a very good reason.
I believe that covers it nicely. The following is from our friends at Hodgdon:
International makes no mention or reference to handgun use.
Which SYSTEM is that? Can't I use 4756 instead of 4759? They are only three apart.
Accurate 2520 must be for the 25-20 winchester right? I mean it says 2520 on the bottle!
Lets see Alliant is doing kind of the same thing Bullseye, BE-84, BE-86 all different beasts.
Universal Clays is Universal not just plain Clays, poor naming scheme on Hodgdons part, but not all that bad in the grand scheme of things.
(and one of my favorite pistol powders)
As a side note ADI does list some handgun loads for AP50N but not many.
"Only 3 a part" funny
4227 = 4 + 2 + 2 + 7 = 15
4831 = 4 + 8 + 3 + 1 = 16
Only 1 apart
Separate names with a comma.