Universal. Clays. Universal Clays. Huh?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by Tallbald, Aug 26, 2014.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. Tallbald

    Tallbald Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2009
    Messages:
    862
    Location:
    Southern KY
    OK. Sadly simple question. My 15 year old unopened 1 pound jug of powder "Universal Clays" from Y2K prepping is now needed. It was a powder recommended to me at the shop. Looking for load date, I find....."Universal"....and "Clays". I don't find Universal Clays. It's a Hodgden powder, and their site says "Universal" OR "Clays". The picture on their site that looks like the label on my powder is listed "Universal". I'm confused and afraid to guess. What have I got? Don
     
  2. jwrowland77

    jwrowland77 Member

    Joined:
    Apr 8, 2012
    Messages:
    2,293
    Location:
    Central Arkansas
    Universal.

    Clays is a faster powder than Universal.
     
  3. Pilot

    Pilot Member

    Joined:
    Dec 29, 2002
    Messages:
    6,691
    Location:
    USA
    I just call it "Clays", and I use it a lot for .45 ACP target loads. It is fast, and clean, but better at lighter to mid range loads, so that is what I use it for. "Universal" is an entirely different powder, which is slower burning, and with a wider range of handgun cartridge uses.
     
  4. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    26,557
    Location:
    Northeast PA, USA
    Hodgdon brought out a line of shotgun powder which they named "The Clays Line".
    The line was made up of Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays in that order for speed of the powder. So many reloaders were confused by the use of the Clays name in all 3 Hodgdon as been slowly moving away from using the Clays name in all but the first Clays powder.

    They are now calling them Clays, International and Universal dropping the Clays ID from the second 2 powders.

    Go here: http://hodgdon.com/shotpist.html and you can read it for yourself.
     
  5. Mule

    Mule Member

    Joined:
    Dec 31, 2002
    Messages:
    135
    Location:
    Franklin County Missouri, USA
    Three powders originally introduced as Clays, International Clays and Universal Clays. Because of confusion they were renamed Clays, International and Universal.
     
  6. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    31,557
    Location:
    Florence, Alabama
    The last label I saw on a Universal bottle said "Clays technology."

    International (clays) has very few handgun applications. All were originally shotshell powders but Clays and Universal have spread into pistol loading.
     
  7. rsrocket1

    rsrocket1 Member

    Joined:
    May 20, 2010
    Messages:
    1,661
    Location:
    Sacramento, CA
    The actual manufacturer is ADI powders in Australia. Hodgdon should have simply kept ADI's nomenclature.

    Clays = AS30N
    International "Clays" = AS50N
    Universal "Clays" = AP70N

    Your Universal is their clone of Alliant Unique. Loads are very close to each other, but not exact so follow load recipes to begin with. Universal burns more completely than Unique, but also costs more. Just like Unique, Universal is a very versatile powder for handgun loads.
     
  8. BruceB

    BruceB Member

    Joined:
    Jun 26, 2004
    Messages:
    718
    Location:
    nevada
    I'm sitting here looking at a bottle of Universal Clays.

    That's what the label says: "Universal" in big black letters, with the "Clays" sort of camouflaged as white letters in a green band underneath the "Universal".

    I date my powders when I buy them, and this bottle has been sitting for a while as it's dated 1999.

    The burning speed of the stuff is close to that of Unique. I plan to use up this bottle in the near future, and loads from the middle of the handbook range for Unique will work fine.

    Example: Lyman loads for the 356402 cast 124-grain bullet run from 4.0 Unique to 6.0 grains of Unique. I'll load 5.0 of Universal and call it good.... it's just for plinkers, after all.

    Hodgdon's decision-making in naming these powders is about the DUMBEST merchandising I have ever seen, considering the potential safety problems involved.
     
  9. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    26,557
    Location:
    Northeast PA, USA
    I would be careful, looking at the 9mm load data for both show a wide variation between the two. With most bullets Unique is a full grain or more higher than the Universal loads. With a 115gr Speer GDHP bullet the top load with Unique is 6.3gr and with Universal it's only 5.0gr. The starting charge of Unique is bigger than the Max charge of Universal.

    I always thought they were much closer in charge weights but i guess it depends upon the cartridge. In the .38 Special with a 158gr lead bullet the two powders are only .2gr apart. With a 125gr XTP bullet the difference is slightly higher @ .5gr...
     
  10. MEHavey

    MEHavey Member

    Joined:
    Jul 27, 2010
    Messages:
    4,033
    Location:
    virginia
    From a post about a year ago:

    "Clays" and "Universal" are two entirely different powders. Both are Hodgdon** powders.
    The fact that one says "Clays Technology" in small letters does not make the same as "CLAYS" powder.
    Don't confuse the two.

    P5290106.jpg

    CLAYS has a burn rate of 6.7 -- very fast
    UNIVERSAL, on the other hand, burns at ~2.4


    ** Hodgdon in the sense that they are imported by Hogdon from Thales Australia Defense Industries (ADI)

    Note also:
    ADI Powder/Hodgdon naming
    AS30N.................Clays
    Trail Boss.............Trial Boss
    AS50N.................International
    AP70N.................Universal
    AR2205...............H4227
    AR2207...............H4198
    AR2219...............H322
    BM2....................Benchmark
    AR2206H.............H4895
    AR2208...............Varget
    AR2209...............H4350
    AR2213SC...........H4831 / H4831SC
    AR2217...............H1000
    AR2225...............Retumbo
    AR2218...............H50BMG

    Note also that ADI had a disruption in their production of "AD70N" a few months back, and won't be restarting until 2014.
    Why do I care? Because AD70N = Universal

    postscript: ADI also makes IMR8208.
    Bottom Line? If the Aussies go down, we are in a world of hurt.
     
  11. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

    Joined:
    Nov 20, 2006
    Messages:
    70,929
    Location:
    Alabama
    It was a dumb way to name them, but we are stuck with it now.

    Think of it like Bob, Sue, and William Jones. All from the Jones family, but very different from each other.
     
  12. Sport45

    Sport45 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 5, 2004
    Messages:
    2,783
    Location:
    Houston, TX
    Kind of like the "Dots", but with names instead of colors.
     
  13. Reloadron
    • Contributing Member

    Reloadron Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    8,949
    Location:
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    My guess is you have a 1 Lb. jug of Universal Clays which if you do looks like the below image:

    Universal%20Clays.png

    White label with blue text and trim and the word Clays below Universal white on blue. Should you have what I have pictured you would use the Hodgdon Universal load data.

    The container should have some load data shown, note they (in small print) point out the loads shown are Max Load Data.

    Yeah, they could have done better with their naming conventions. Much. much better. :)

    Ron
     
  14. oneounceload

    oneounceload member

    Joined:
    Apr 24, 2008
    Messages:
    15,710
    Location:
    Hot and Humid FL
    All three were initially designed to work primarily as shotgun powders, hence the three names with Clays in them. With confusion happening on some folks' part, they went with just Universal. All three also happen to make decent pistol propellants. I like Universal for 20ga, 28ga as well as 38, 9mm, 32SWL and even 45ACP
     
  15. Tallbald

    Tallbald Member

    Joined:
    Jan 29, 2009
    Messages:
    862
    Location:
    Southern KY
    Reloadron that's what I have. I wish they were just listed by the old number system as IMR did. Kinda confusing for an old fella like me.... Thank you all. Don.
     
  16. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    26,557
    Location:
    Northeast PA, USA
    Actually only 2 made decent pistol powders. From the beginning Hodgdon has strongly recommended against using International for any handgun applications. Right now I don't think they supply load data for any handgun cartridge. International has been reported to spike pressures, sometimes very high spikes. If the powder company distributing the powder doesn't supply any handgun data for that powder there is usually a very good reason.
     
  17. Reloadron
    • Contributing Member

    Reloadron Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Jul 6, 2012
    Messages:
    8,949
    Location:
    Cleveland, Ohio USA
    I believe that covers it nicely. The following is from our friends at Hodgdon:

    International makes no mention or reference to handgun use.

    Ron
     
  18. Jim Watson

    Jim Watson Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    31,557
    Location:
    Florence, Alabama
    "I wish they were just listed by the old number system as IMR did."

    Which SYSTEM is that? Can't I use 4756 instead of 4759? They are only three apart.
     
  19. ArchAngelCD

    ArchAngelCD Member

    Joined:
    Nov 25, 2006
    Messages:
    26,557
    Location:
    Northeast PA, USA
    Priceless! :p :D
     
  20. Dudedog
    • Contributing Member

    Dudedog Contributing Member

    Joined:
    Oct 19, 2013
    Messages:
    6,645
    Location:
    Southern CA
    Lets make it bad using numbers and have things like H4831 and IMR 4831 close but not the same...two different 4350s two different 4895s.

    Accurate 2520 must be for the 25-20 winchester right? I mean it says 2520 on the bottle!

    Lets see Alliant is doing kind of the same thing Bullseye, BE-84, BE-86 all different beasts.

    Universal Clays is Universal not just plain Clays, poor naming scheme on Hodgdons part, but not all that bad in the grand scheme of things.
    (and one of my favorite pistol powders)

    As a side note ADI does list some handgun loads for AP50N but not many.

    "Only 3 a part" funny
    Ok hhmmm
    4227 = 4 + 2 + 2 + 7 = 15
    4831 = 4 + 8 + 3 + 1 = 16

    Only 1 apart :neener:
     
    Last edited: Sep 4, 2014
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. This site uses cookies to help personalise content, tailor your experience and to keep you logged in if you register.
    By continuing to use this site, you are consenting to our use of cookies.
    Dismiss Notice