UNPLEASANT LESSON

Discussion in 'Strategies, Tactics, and Training' started by golden, May 23, 2022.

  1. golden

    golden Member

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    I was at a virtual training session the other day. We did a shoot/don't shoot/shoot training session with the idea bng do you see the threat, what can you do and is it safe to shoot or not shoot. It was a good training scenario.

    Then we did some non lethal training with a tazer, a device I have not been issued. I added to my utility belt and began drawing and using it. I had not used one before, except once during another training exercise.
    So when I went back to the virtual training, I had to break up an argument that turned into an assault. I tried to draw the tazer and the safety catch did not release and I stood there for a second and drew my GLOCK as the aggressor raised his weapon for another attack. I aimed in and yelled to step back or I would shoot. The machine reacts to your actions and the aggressor stood there trying to decide. I ordered both parties to move away from each other and told the attacker to get on his knees and then the ground. At that point, another officer (virtual also) came on the scene and we secured the subject.

    My take on this was never, ever carry a piece of equipment I am not familiar with and my second lesson was be prepared at any time to go for your gun.

    Jim
     
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  2. old lady new shooter

    old lady new shooter Member

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    Scary experience for you! Thanks for sharing and get some sleep now. :)
     
  3. JTHunter

    JTHunter Member

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    Golden - there was a case (IIRC) last year in the St. Louis area where a female LEO inadvertently pulled her sidearm instead of her Taser, as she had intended. The person she and another officer were confronting ended up in the morgue I believe. I don't remember if she was prosecuted but I do remember that she resigned. Bodycam footage showed her trying to apply first aid to the man as she was screaming for help as she was kind of freaking out at what had just happened.
     
  4. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    You must work for an employer that hasn't been sued enough times. One the West Coast, everyone gets a TASER. Originally, for many of our agencies, they were only issued to supervisors, so you had to wait until a sergeant got on-scene, which meant you'd already gone hands-on, the fight was on, everyone got OCed, so by the time the sergeant or patrol supervisor got there, the lawyers were already contacting the family of the suspect to plan the lawsuit.

    I'm curious about your training policies, though, because where I've worked, we were never allowed to use a force option -- even in training (in-service, academies or off-site contracted courses) that we had not been certified on.
     
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  5. ms6852

    ms6852 Member

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    You can train and train and train and train and then the unexpected happens that was not covered in the training and that only involves the gear , there is still the human element that we can never account for. But training is important.

    A couple of months ago I rented a personal stall, where I could stand in front of my target and draw and shoot from the holster. I always warm up with my 617 S&W a couple of hundred rounds and then do my 686 .357 which is my EDC and then shot my 642 Smith and Wesson Airweight.
    I practice double action only.

    I took a friend with me that day and he loves to talk a big game but he is really a puppy next to me. Sees me shoot , we alternate since he carries his 9mm. He asks to shoot my revolvers which he does not like and luckily we are both lefties so I lend him my gear. I ask if he wants to shoot my 617 and talks crap about the 22 so he asks for my 686, I use full loads of 158 grains. He shoots and I see the first shot takes him by surprise and misses the silhouette at 15 yards and only shoots 3 rounds he could not take it the recoil. I ask him if he wanted to try the .38 a lower caliber and he says sure I hear they are not that bad. Now my gun is a Airweight and I told him to move to the 3 yard line because it is a close up gun. Starts talking crap again and I said just shut up and shoot. He shot, missed and cussed me he said recoil was worse than my .357. which I think it is too.

    Taught my friend a lesson that day that the unexpected always happens regardless of how much you train or shoot, how you respond at that moment is what will get you killed or safe your life.
     
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  6. shafter

    shafter Member

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    I'm having trouble following the scenario, but if the aggressor was armed with a weapon in the first place, it was probably the wrong decision to go to the Taser.
     
  7. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    Didn’t they require you to take the complete taser certification course? We had to certify with everything from the PR24 (issued when I started), the Asp collapsible baton (replaced the PR24), OC and taser before we were allowed to use it on duty.
     
  8. golden

    golden Member

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    Shafter,

    The weapon was an imrovised one, the subject picked it up and beat the other guy over the head and shoulders. No gun or knife.

    Jeff White,

    I have not taken the training course, but the instructor wanted to introduce me to the tazer. I have not had any training on it prior to that day, except for a 1 hour session at the last virtual training. I have been issued a tazer as of yet, my unit is last in line for them. If I have the option, I will probably not carry it. I have a lot more confidence in the collapable baton at this point.

    Jim
     
  9. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    Yeah, I had thought that way too once, but one too many up-close-and-personal situations finally cured me. Although I'm now retired, I came to believe that it's better to stop a fight than engage in one that is likely to result in litigation -- I've not seen many good outcomes in cases where batons were used. And I can't recall any cases up here in the PNW where any officers employed batons in recent years (not that any officers are scared or reluctant to use 'em, er, uh, yeah). But I knew batons were on the way out when an employer lost (retirement, laterals, etc.) all its certified baton instructors and quietly let certification lapse for everyone (training lapses all got blamed on the pandemic), didn't even recruit for new instructors.

    I was certified to instruct the X26, the X2 and the TASER 7, and Axon nailed it with the TASER 7. And we all know the required training of personnel to use the TASER and watching people "volunteer" for an "application." If you know anyone who's gone through it lately, ask them if they've got the video on their phone... Good times.
     
  10. Old Dog

    Old Dog Member

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    I hated having to run with the old PR24 hanging from the bat-belt -- seemed like you had to make a choice between chasing someone with either your baton or your MagLite in one hand with the other hand on your mic. Something was always banging on your leg... Collapsible ASPs and the small lights were a definite step forward.

    Back on track, we did have a female officer up here, I think back around '04 or '05, who shot a guy in a tree with her pistol -- thought she'd grabbed her TASER. When the same thing happened within the last couple year, it was eerily familiar.
     
  11. Jeff White

    Jeff White Moderator Staff Member

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    I guess she missed the part about not using the taser on a subject who would fall any distance.

    I agree. The only thing I used my collapsible baton for after they issued OC was breaking windows. OC and tasers are preferable to any impact weapon.
     
  12. golden

    golden Member

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    DOG,

    I am getting long in the tooth as well and will retire in the next couple of years, so I am not worried about the baton being on the way out. It is mandatory for us to get baton training refresher course every year. It is still popular because your baton can never leak or depressurize like pepper spray and it does not have to be replaced after use. Also, you cannot use pepper spray in confined spaces and on planes.
    The tazer we have is pretty sophisticated and I did not like it for that reason alone. If I was going to the academy again, I would probably be alright with the training for it, but I am not likely to go back, so I will stay with the stick and gun. I have faith in them until someone decides to order us smart guns. I will retire when they are issued!

    Jim
     
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  13. starnbar

    starnbar Member

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    When we went to the asp it was really a better baton at least for us that PR24 was pia.I really liked the flex cuffs too especially when we were doing a football game or concert that was the way to go.
     
  14. Sarge7402

    Sarge7402 Member

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    Remember it takes 500 repetitions for muscle memory to kick in
     
  15. golden

    golden Member

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    Then I have only 492 repetitions to go!

    Jm
     
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