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Unsure and looking for answers

Discussion in 'General Gun Discussions' started by Mandabear3109, Apr 15, 2013.

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  1. Mandabear3109

    Mandabear3109 Member

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    Two things:

    First, I think it's great that your children know what to do with a gun if they ever need it. As I stated earlier, people should have the right to defend themselves and that is not just limited to adults. Their knowledge leading to their lack of curiosity ensures their safety.

    Second, I also like the fact that if there are children in your home who are less familiar or comfortable with guns, you take measures to make sure that they are properly put away.
     
  2. Mandabear3109

    Mandabear3109 Member

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    This is very similar to how I was raised. My family did not really talk about many of the current debates that are found in the media, and I have had to develop my own opinions about almost everything. Though it is a good thing to form my own opinions, I am often on the fence about the issues. This is complicated by the fact that so many people are trying to change the minds of others, and the facts tend to get lost. I think this is why I am so undecided on many controversial issues; it's not that I don't care, it's that I don't know what to believe and what not to believe. I am the type of person that can see beneficial things from both sides of most arguments, so that does not help either.
     
  3. fanchisimo

    fanchisimo Member

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    MandaBear,

    I think your fiancee is overreacting but I see that you're in Colorado. A lot of unfair laws were just imposed in your state so there is a lot of frustration he and gun owners are going through. That's not an excuse for what he said, but he is probably still ticked about it.
     
  4. creitzel

    creitzel Member

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    This can be especially true in the gun debate. I have seen some very outlandish claims from both sides of the argument. In general though, I believe facts back up our position. And in fact, I have seen the other side of the debate often misrepresenting the facts, or skewing data to try and support their agenda.

    One of the things that I love about the High Road, is that the facts are the priority. In fact I've often seen members called out for not providing citations to back up claims. etc. This is a great place to educate yourself on the firearms topic. :)
     
  5. geekWithA.45

    geekWithA.45 Moderator Emeritus

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    Howdy, Mandabear.

    In my view, the 2nd amendment is some of the way down a chain of reasoning, not the beginning of it.

    This chain, incidentally, answers a lot of other questions along the way, such as "who owns me, my work products, what are rights, and where doesn't government get any power to begin with?"

    The 2nd amendment is all inextricably bound up in all that, and it's really hard to get all the nuances worked into a few pithy paragraphs.

    --==|==--

    My chain starts all the way at Taking Notice of my own Existence.

    I exist.

    I find inherent in my existence, (and as some would assert, "endowed of my creator") the absolute right to my own life, liberty, and justly acquired property.

    No one has ever brought forth any argument that held water to the contrary, asserting that any other person or group had a higher claim on these things than me.

    No one and nothing has any just right to interfere in this, and this forms the boundary and limitation of my own liberty, that I have no right to interfere in anyone else's, except in the defense of that which is rightly mine.

    The 2A branch of the argument basically states that I have the right to any and all means and tools for such purpose.

    Carrying on with the main thrust of the argument, if no individual has a just right to interfere with my prerogatives, there is no reason or justification that any collection of individuals, by virtue of their assembly, (or any other reason) has any claim either.

    Now, as to government: The powers of government are formed of the delegation of my own just powers, and only for the just purposes of assisting me in the preservation of my own prerogatives. Government has no powers not granted to it, nor may I grant powers unto it which are not justly mine to begin with. For example, since I have no just power to enslave, I cannot grant that power to government, and any claim I make, a government makes, or any group of people make to the contrary is inherently fraudulent. (Not to mention evil.)

    That's the *very* short course in the matter.

    In general, the more some philosophical justification for a power varies from this, the greater your suspicion of it should be.

    Check your own premises! What are your axioms? What magic does government posses?

    Would you tolerate someone taking your tree cutting tools from you, because they baselessy feared you might go all axe murdery on them? And if one person hasn't the right, then why should some group have the right, just because they said they did? How is that any different from "might makes right"?
     
  6. 0to60

    0to60 Member

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    The first thing you're going to find about the gun control debate is that on the pro-gun extreme, if you're not for them then you're against them. A lot of folks here see in black and white, and if you're in the grey area, good luck getting through to them.

    Its ok to not know where you stand on this issue. It wouldn't be a national debate 200 years after writing the constitution if it were a cut and dry issue. Both sides have sensible points. The country has gone back and forth on this for a long time, and that's a sure sign of very complicated topic.
     
  7. Mandabear3109

    Mandabear3109 Member

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    I am very much in agreement with you on this, and feel that I have gotten very well informed responses from people without all of the hate that I was worried I would get. These issues are not as black and white and many people think, but learning about the issues is a good start.
     
  8. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    Also, if you have some free time, I recommend looking over this PDF:
    http://www.gunfacts.info/pdfs/gun-facts/6.2/gun-facts-6-2-screen.pdf

    Basically it contains all the facts about anything related to guns. With sources and cites such as the FBI/DOJ.

    The Brady Campaign HAS been called out multiple times for fudging numbers. The most famous case is the one where they claimed some ludicrous number of children were murdered 'by guns' (not people, the guns did it on their own).

    Turns out in the study the defined a 'child' as anyone under the age of 28.
     
  9. holdencm9

    holdencm9 Member

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    Mandabear,

    You are definitely on the right track, and based on what you are saying, it seems like you sort of fall on the pro-gun side of the fence more than the anti-gun side.

    As you said, it is NOT about hunting.

    As you said, more laws will NOT prevent criminals from getting guns or committing crimes.

    As you said, it IS somewhat like V for Vendetta. The people should not fear the government, the government should fear the people.

    When was the last time you heard someone refer to the government as our government? That's what it is supposed to be. For the people, by the people. Yet certain individuals feel compelled to try to control the tiny fraction of a percent of evil-doers, by regulating the masses. Some may have good intentions, but many are just using gun control as a means to an end: control. People like Bloomberg literally think they are above the rest of us, and they need to control us for our own sake. I am against that, on principle, just like I was against the gum ban in second grade, because some kids just couldn't resist sticking it under the desk! Even back then I thought, why all kids should be subjugated to these restrictions when it is just a few who commit the act. Why not punish those individuals better? It is a direct correlation to all these gun control regulations.

    They want us to give up rights, and then criticize us for "not compromising." It is absurd. They say we have to do SOMETHING...for the children! They play on emotion. They scoff at the slippery slope argument against them, saying no one wants to take away your guns, but yet we can see the slippery slope in action in NY, CT, and CO, among others.
     
  10. allaroundhunter

    allaroundhunter Member

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    Mandabear, from one college student to another (albeit different genders), do you carry some form of protection when you are around campus, especially at night? Pepper spray or anything of the like? How would you feel having that taken away by politicians saying that you don't need it, you should just call the police instead.

    Girls in college are targeted far more frequently than others to be victims of crime.

    One Colorado's own representatives made the comment to the extent of women might not even know when they are actually being raped and used that as justification for not allowing the carrying of handguns for personal protection.... I don't know about you, but there are no girls that I know who would have trouble understanding when someone crosses the line.

    There are very few things that can help a 115 lb woman turn the tide against a 220 lb attacker; but a firearm can.

    In my opinion, the government has no right to tell me what I can and cannot use to protect myself, my family, and my friends from criminals.

    Your fiance is going about "convincing" you the wrong way, but one of the reasons that he is so vehement about his 2nd amendment rights is so that he can protect you if he ever needs to. Those of us who carry don't do it to get the "macho" feeling, it is so that we know that we can protect ourselves and those we care about if (god forbid) we ever have to.
     
  11. Mandabear3109

    Mandabear3109 Member

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    Thank you for sharing that article, and I will definitely look into it.

    As far as the other half of your post, the idea that guns fire on their own accord is ridiculous. That's like them trying to say that knives stab people on their own. If someone responsibly takes care of their right to own a gun, there shouldn't be any mishaps. The study defined children as those under the age of 28, which is also ridiculous to me because according to the law, you are an adult at the age of 18 (or 21, if you include the right to drink in that as well).
     
  12. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

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    You are far ahead of the game.
    One of the things we get so angry about is when politicians equate hunting with 2nd Amendment rights. It never mentions hunting, because that's not what it's about. To already understand this at your early stage in researching the facts is outstanding.
     
  13. tyeo098

    tyeo098 Member

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    Thats why we detest phrases like 'gun violence' because it does not make sense to call DUIs or hit-and-runs 'car violence' not beatings and such 'blunt-object violence.'
    Guns are specifically targeted because they easily scare people and therefore make very good scapegoats.

    But those results did not fit with the answer they were looking for.

    So they fudged the numbers to get the answer they wanted.
     
  14. Mandabear3109

    Mandabear3109 Member

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    I actually just watched the advertisement created by Bloomberg to advocate stricter gun laws, with the guy holding his gun while sitting on the back of the truck, on the NRA website. And it looked at the video from a much different perspective. The response to said commercial said that Bloomberg should give the man gun training instead of wasting the money on the video because his finger was close to the trigger and he was holding the gun wrong while children were around, and I realized that I agree with this assessment.
     
  15. Mandabear3109

    Mandabear3109 Member

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    Yes, I actually do have pepper spray on my key chain at all times. My fiance got it for me soon after we got together because we lived in different cities and I usually got home from his house late at night. I am a student at a university that has a high rate of sexual assaults, and I would make sure that it was in my hands already before approaching the door. I can see how the comparison between this and the greater defense of a handgun makes sense, and I would not feel safe if my pepper spray were being taken away, much like they are attempting to do for guns. When looked at from this perspective, I am definitely pro-guns.

    The fact that one of my state's own representatives said that a woman may not know she was even being raped is a terrible thing to say, and it offends me greatly. Not only is he saying that women are stupid and oblivious, but that we, as humans, do not have a right to protect ourselves from danger.
     
  16. Jungo2

    Jungo2 Member

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    Mandabear,

    I'll try not to wax 'redundancy' over what has already been proffered repeatedly in this thread. That said, upon reading your initial post, my first instinct was to comment on your fiancée's rather uncourteous reaction to your undecided position on the 2nd amendment. Admittedly, as you were uninformed about the subject, you wisely chose not to offer an uninformed opinion. Subsequently, I find your fiancée's response not only inappropriate, but quite ironic as the vast majority of gun-control advocates obviously lack any such wisdom. I find your candid honesty in this regard quite refreshing and I admire your decision to become more informed on this very important subject.

    Kindest regards and best wishes
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  17. Mandabear3109

    Mandabear3109 Member

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    In other news, I just found this online and thought you might all appreciate it...

    This is what one might call "extreme fishing," discovered on reddit.
     

    Attached Files:

  18. leprechaun50

    leprechaun50 Member

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    Mandabear, I come from a background where my father had a few guns, a .22 rifle, a 16 ga shotgun and a .32 pistol. All of his guns were always loaded. The rifle and shotgun were kept in the toolshed on our farm and the pistol was in his dresser drawer. My brother, sister and I knew where they were, that they were loaded, and until we were old enough to have permission to use them on our own, we were not allowed to touch them unless my father was with us. My father gave us shooting lessons when we were small enough that he would have to help us hold the while we shot.

    My wife of 34 years came from a similar background. We have always owned at least one gun and bought more as we could afford them. We also raised our children as we were raised, the only concession was our guns were kept in a locked cabinet.
    My wife and I have a great enough respect for each other that neither of us would have gone off on the other as your fiance did to you. Regardless of any differences we have had we have always talked them out reasonably, and come to a mutual agreement.

    I think your fiance is a bit too immature at this stage of his life, and you should be looking at his actions and treatment of you and think, Could I live my life in happiness with this person? Just how much does he RESPECT me and my opinions?

    One thing you may want to give some thought to is to seek out a good basic firearms training class on your own. Don't tell him anything about so that you can form your own opinions on firearms without any input from him.

    Whatever you decide to do just be sure it is what YOU want. Best of luck to you.

    P.S. I am not ashamed to say that my wife can outshoot me with almost erery gun we own!
     
  19. Mandabear3109

    Mandabear3109 Member

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    Were you ever tempted or curious to touch the guns, even though your dad said not to?

    I assume that this was a mutual decision on both of your parts, but I am just curious on how you came to this decision given your backgrounds? Did you ever consider not locking up your guns as your dad did when you were growing up?

    Between reading posts of this forum, I also did some looking into basic firearms training classes, as well as local shooting ranges, that would give me more experience with guns so that I can be more comfortable with them.
     
  20. leprechaun50

    leprechaun50 Member

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    Mandabear, No we knew better. My dad would have "taken us to the woodshed" so to speak. Not something you would want to happen.

    We made a joint decision after a co-workers daughter was accidently shot and killed by one of her brothers. Until this happened my guns were not locked up but our daughter couldn't reach them. We later had two more children, bought a small locked cabinet. All our children were taught to shoot at an early age. Now with 3 1/2 grandchildren and more guns we have a gun safe.
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
  21. Arkansas Paul

    Arkansas Paul Member

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    I grew up in an environment similar to leprechaun50. Except in my case, there were guns all over the house, and most were loaded.
    And to answer your question, no, I was never tempted to touch them. When my dad said to not do something, doing it never crossed your mind. We had a healthy fear of him. Don't get me wrong, he was a caring father, but when he gave orders, he expected them to be obeyed, and it didn't take long to see that his way was the easiest.

    Another reason why I wasn't tempted to play with them when he wasn't there is because I knew that I could see them any time I wanted to. All I had to do was ask.

    Now, that being said, I don't prescribe to his practice of leaving loaded guns all over the house. The guns are in a locked cabinet, with the exception of my nightstand weapon and my wife's nightstand weapon. I would rather err on the side of caution.
     
  22. leprechaun50

    leprechaun50 Member

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    ^^^^^^^^^^
    What he said
     
  23. BullfrogKen

    BullfrogKen Moderator Emeritus

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    I'd say that the angst and anger your fiance is feeling is likely due to the onerous laws Colorado just passed. The past several months have caused both sides of the debate to entrench as the push for more gun control - whether it's reasonable or not - stems from a highly emotional event that has circumvented the normal deliberative process most laws go through before being passed.

    Colorado's recent political events are a prime example of that.


    I'm not a relationship counselor. But he's young, you're young. He was probably looking for you to be a little more on "his side" when the conversation came up, and got angry when you didn't see things the same way he did. That's typical among young people who have some unrealistic expectations from the person they expect will be their partner through life.

    Regarding the boycott . . . Yes, for some people it's very offensive. Some people see the "no guns allowed" signs on businesses and react the same way as if they saw a "no coloreds allowed", or "no Jews allowed" on the business. After all, the sign is a reflection of a prejudice that people with guns with them couldn't have them for a good purpose. 20 years of the right to carry movement has shown that's just not true.


    Anyway. I hope the two of you find a way to have a debate without the emotional undertones getting in the way. It might be helpful to simply say you're not opposed to the things he believes in at all, but you don't feel passionately about it either. Which sounds like that's the truth.


    My wife wasn't when we first met, either. But after 15 years of being together she sees it as a civil rights issue. I didn't beat her over the head with it, she simply came to adopt that point of view through her own exploration of the issue.
     
  24. leprechaun50

    leprechaun50 Member

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  25. Mandabear3109

    Mandabear3109 Member

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    That is another comparison that I had never thought about, and I appreciate you bringing it to my attention. My in-laws are the type that will boycott places because they do not support the second amendment, and they will tell us to do the same. Though I have realized that I am a supporter of guns, I don't know if I am so to this extreme, and I think this is another thing that bothers my fiance. I don't know which part bothered him more, me being on the fence, or the fact that I don't necessarily believe in the boycotts like he and his family do. :uhoh:

    Edit: His entire family is very libertarian when it comes to political issues, so much so that I have had to reduce the number of posts that I receive from them on Facebook. My other beliefs are similar to this, in that I do not feel prepared enough about many of the hot topic issues to have a solid opinion on them. I tend to be a fence-rider simply out of lack of knowledge, and I worry that other topics will come between he and I now that we have discovered our differences on this particular issue. I guess my question is this: what are the chances of a couple working out if some or many of their political beliefs are different, and how will this affect our kids if/when we decide to have them?
     
    Last edited: Apr 15, 2013
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