Update on situation in Baltimore Jewish community

[Vern Humphrey]

Given that the ACLU has so much support amongst Jews, why is the ACLU not taking up the case? Why aren't they defending your 2nd Amendment rights?

(That's a rhetorical question -- we all know the answer.)

 

[pcf]

One safety concession I've heard talked about (but no decision) is even though one usually can't carry money on the sabbath or on holidays, maybe people should carry a $20 bill so they have something to give and there is less chance the BG will be angered to violence. I think a few people have done this on their own.

Criminals aren't angered into violence because you don't have money they're violent criminals if they're going to attack you, it won't matter if you have $0, $20, or $1000. A $20 handout is all the more reason for someone to rob you.

Transportation of firearm laws, apply to handguns. IANAL, under Maryland code a shotgun or rifle in your trunk, and a box of shells under your seat, is not prohibited.

 

[benEzra]

Could you introduce any gun-averse friends to the possibility of carrying some sort of Fox Labs OC fogger? Better than nothing, I suppose...

 

[AirForceShooter]

..Guess Justin thought I crossed the line.

AFS

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Transportation of firearm laws, apply to handguns. IANAL, under Maryland code a shotgun or rifle in your trunk, and a box of shells under your seat, is not prohibited.

e

It's also not a very quick weapon to put into action, and if it's in the trunk, not much use if you're attacked while walking down the street.

as a Jew these poeple disgust me.
You won't even take steps to defend yourself??
I grew up with people like this. "wer'e too enlightened to arm ourselves."


Somewhere along the way they forgot they were warriors. Funny part is they despise those of us that do remember.

If a man will not defend himself, what right does he have to demand others risk their lives in his defense?

 

[Aikibiker]

Could the community get together and hire a couple armed bodyguards to escort people on the Sabath? I am not sure if it is legal to have non-Jews working on your behalf on the holy day, but having a couple legally armed professionals around might be more palatable to the community then taking action personally. (Sad I know, but you gotta play the hand life deals you)

If you are going to carry illegally have you given some thought about what you will do in the aftermath of a self defense shooting? The fact that the barrel, extractor, and ejecter on the 1911 design are easily changed and readily available might influence my carry choice in such a situation.

 

[R.H. Lee]

Somewhere along the way they forgot they were warriors. Funny part is they despise those of us that do remember.

and

If a man will not defend himself, what right does he have to demand others risk their lives in his defense?

In principle, you are both exactly right, of course. However, you need to think it through. If Jews start packing and defending themselves, probably killing some goblins in the process, they'll turn from victims to aggressors. There will be individual prosecutions, Jesse HiJackson and Al Sharpton will show up with accusations of racism, etc., et yada. There will probably be a backlash in terms of Jewish homes and business torched. It would be a mess.

Explain all that at the city council meeting. Warn them before you escalate.

 

[longrifleman]

"wer'e too enlightened to arm ourselves."

How does this square with "Never Again"? Given the history of persecution, I've always thought Jews would be the most heavily armed segment of society. Instead, they seem to be the most heavily dependent on the state for protection. Don't any rabbi's ask the question "What do we do if the state refuses to protect us, or if the state is doing the persecuting?"

Inviting the Israeli paras over for some R&R is an excellent idea.

 

[BobCat]

Chaim,

My first carry gun was a 3" Model 13, loaded with 125 g .357 Golden Saber. I love that little smith and still take it to the range frequently. Even worked up a "light-magnum" load that matches the muzzle velocity of the G-S without the dramatic noise - but that's another story.

When I realized the CZ75B would disapear in my holster just as well as the little smith, held 3x the number of rounds, and the muzzle velocity of the 9 mm 124 g hydra shocks was the same (1150 fps) as the 125 g .357 from the 3" revolver, the only question was reliablity. The CZ prints at least as well @ 15 yards, and does not "jam" or fail to fire, whatever I feed it.

The rest of the advice you have received is excellent - walk in groups, and maybe find some Conservative/Reform Jews who like to play baseball on Shabot to walk with you, with their gloves, balls, and bats. Also suggest to the authorities that they do not need the bad publicity a fatal attack on an Orthodox Jew, on the Sabbath, would bring. And yes, for home invasions - a shotgun, not a handgun.

And now I'll go out on a limb and probably provoke someone's ire. I grew up in "the north" and got all the typical brainwashing about endemic antisemitisim in the South - but it is all [expletive] nonsense! If it ever was true at all, it is no more. I've never faced any real hostility in Texas. I've been called a "yankeejewliberal" - but only by a smiling neighbor who was clearly teasing me, since he was aware of the stereotyping I grew up with. I knew he was teasing since I'm not a liberal.

So - as much as it may seem repugnant to cut and run in the face of danger, you might give some serious thought to getting the heck out of there. Unless you can change the laws probibiting you from going armed, you will continue to be a sitting duck. Were your progenitors, who left Europe in advance of the Shoah (I'm guessing) - were they cowards, or simply people who were smart enough to get out before it hit the fan? There is a good-sized Jewish community in Houston, and in Austin, and probably elsewhere in Texas. Or other states that are Shall-Issue. You would be welcome.

Didn't mean to go on at such length, but you hit a nerve and I suppose I over-reacted. Best wishes for your (y'all's - second person plural) future well-being.

Regards,
Andrew

 

[ceetee]

"Walk softly, and carry a big stick..."

If having a firearm makes you feel more sure of yourself, have one. That confidence will show through to your potential attackers. Just be aware that if you do have to use it, you will be going to prison, and you'll probably be sued in civil court as well. Only use it in a situation where prison is more attractive than the alternatives.

That said, though, I agree with everyone that said walk in groups. A group of some fifteen-to-twenty adults, all carrying big sticks (think Buford Pusser-type sticks) should be enough to deter any but the most aggressive and/or populous gangs. Also, ditto on the pepper spray, electric weapons, camera phones, et al. Whatever is legal to carry, and won't violate your religious beliefs, should be on your persons...

 

[Essex County]

I'm apalled

Nobody should have to go through this. There are better envorements to live in. I live in a small town in northern Vermont where there is no anti-semitism. None at all. I say this because we do have a few jewish folks in town and they are acepted like all folks.....for who they are. I realize I've lead a shelter life for the last 25 years, but I've thought that this was a long gone thing of the past. May God be with You.....Essex County

 

[Justin]

I'll note that this is The High Road, and disparaging comments about other members' faith will not be tolerated. If you have a helpful suggestion or solution, post it. Otherwise, don't read the thread.

 

[Gunpacker]

Don't some groups of Jews refuse to fight even in Israel? Against their religious beliefs similar to some like the Amish or other Christian groups? Can't speak for those that feel that way, but it seems that it is a certain way to invite attack from those so inclined. Little risk. Certainly seems that waiting for the police to arrive for protection is likely to be dangerous to one's health.
IMO, those that won't defend themselves are a bit hypocritical to expect or demand that others should put their lives on the line and commit violence for them.

 

[ZenMasterJG]

Gotta go to class, dont have time to read the whole thread... I'll read it when I get back.

I live in Greenspring. I remember how it was 10 or 15 years ago. If things keep up this way, it only makes me more glad that I've moved to Boston. (Only marginally better 2a wise, at least I haven't been mugged at gunpoint in the last 3 years, which is WEIRD for me. having a gun in my face was usually at least a yearly event in Baltimore for me.) I've begged my parents to let me teach them how to use my shotgun (can't really bring it to the dorm with me... ) but they pretty much outright refuse. They're used to the Greenspring of 10, 20 or 30 years ago. I'm making some progress with my Dad with getting him to learn how to defend himself, but hes still resisting.

I worry about 'em. They thought i was nuts to keep a loaded shotgun in my closet, and I think they're nuts not too.

My parents are pretty much total hippies, they're pretty horrified that they raised a "right wing gun nut" (I'm a libertarian, i dont consider myself right wing, but i guess i get that label for not being ultra-liberal like them... )

 

[bogie]

Guys, and goys, I can't resist this...

You need a Shabbas Gunnie.

 

[Oleg Volk]

 

[Aguila Blanca]

Well.....

I think it is the mob attack that has me thinking. It may be rare, but it can and does happen. Maybe there is something to be said for being prepared for the worst. If we prepare for defensive gun use we are preparing, why not prepare for as much as we reasonably can?

Should I abandon revolvers for defensive use? I think I'll always have the first gun to hand at home be a revolver- it is more reliable, it is a MOA I am quite comfortable with, and at home if I need more, then more can be available. But for hotels, when staying with a friend, or when carrying, when it isn't possible to have as many options available I'm leaning towards autos with the higher capacity and faster reloads.

Yes, that would get me thinking, too.

The problem is that a mob attack, if defended by use of a firearms, could go two ways. Read a lot of Louis Lamour westerns and you get the notion that if you point a gun at a mob they automatically chicken out and go away. That might happen. Of if upon a ttack you shoot one or two of the assailants the others might turn tail and run.

But ... they might not. They might all pull out Uzis and ventilate you en masse.

I'm going to beg you to rethink the entire situation. Do as much research as you can, and try to find a safer place that is within walking distance of a synogue. I know in my area Orthodox Jews walk several miles to get to their synogogues. I know this because I live outside a city. We have no sidewalks and they walk on the shoulders of the state highways, which is rather evident to anyone driving by.

I also believe you are correct that these attacks are based on religion. Hoods aren't neurosurgeons, but they aren't lacking in street smarts. It would not take long for them to figure out that Orthodox Jews who don't drive and don't use machinery on the Sabbath also don't carry money on the Sabbath and, therefore, there is no money to be gained by attacking them on the Sabbath. Ergo, IMHO any attack on the Sabbath would be based on religion, not money.

There must be SOMEWHERE you can find a safer area to attend synagogue. My concern is that, if you were attacked by a mob, shooting one or two might incite the others rather than frighten them off. If that happens, even if they don't shoot you to rags, there may be enough of them that even the CZ with 15 rounds may not be enough.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If Jews start packing and defending themselves, probably killing some goblins in the process, they'll turn from victims to aggressors.

How is self-defense an act of aggression?

Experience shows us that people who carry guns find they don't need to use them -- as soon as the goblins find out their intended victims may be armed, they usually go elsewhere. I've had to use a firearm twice in self -- and didn't have to fire a shot either time.

Now, I suspect you mean that there will be demogogues who will accuse the victims of being the aggressors. Let 'em. All you have to do is have an elderly couple who were mugged and beaten respond on TV -- "Never again."

 

[R.H. Lee]

Now, I suspect you mean that there will be demogogues who will accuse the victims of being the aggressors.

Yes, Vern, that's exactly what I meant. The Jewish community should put the city on notice that they don't intend to be victims; that unless the city begins controlling/stopping attacks on Jews, they will arm themselves local ordnances be damned; that there could be a racial backlash that will cost the city millions in police/fire overtime. That's their hammer.

 

[crofrog]

Me and my one of my friends in the area where thinking about this. under the law with security gaurds being able to pack heat. Could a security firm be setup and then use volunteer, or perhaps gaurds paid an honary salary of a dollar, be able to legally arm themsevles for escorts and security of the synagogue?

I'd be surprised with we couldn't get enough highroaders together to make it effective, at least on saturdays...

Rule 1 of a gun fight, bring all your friends with guns.

Just an idea.

Chris

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Yes, Vern, that's exactly what I meant. The Jewish community should put the city on notice that they don't intend to be victims; that unless the city begins controlling/stopping attacks on Jews, they will arm themselves local ordnances be damned; that there could be a racial backlash that will cost the city millions in police/fire overtime. That's their hammer.

If you can get them to do that, I would suggest one step farther -- they should assert that if the government deprives them of a civil right (and the right to bear arms is a civil right) and at the same time deprives them of any realistic means of self-defense, the government has automatically assumed an absolute liability for their safety.

In other words, protect us effectively or pay through the nose. And if you don't like that, stop violating our civil rights.

 

[Standing Wolf]

Going that way would get embarrassing quite fast. The Baltimore Jewish community and the Baltimore Police have worked together on a neighborhood watch program for years that has become a nationwide model for how to do it right.

If I had to choose between embarrassment and death...

 

[Vern Humphrey]

If I had to choose between embarrassment and death...

It would be a no-brainer.

 

[Norton]

Chaim,

I'm really sorry to hear this. Another example of how the so-called leaders in MD are failing the law abiding citizens at the expense of appeasing certain special interest factions within our state.

I think it's time to talk to the delegates and senators from that area (is that Zirkin's district?) and ask them what they intend to do to rectify this horrible situation.

A pity that the Sun is avoiding reporting on this.....but not at all suprising.

 

[AmYisraelChai]

Chiam.....Get out. Why Frum Jews continue to live in Yankee land, I will never understand. Come to Texas....Where even all the Rabbis pack! I have heat in my Talis bag (As do others) I dont carry to and from Shul (Do the preposition thing before a Holyday or Shabbos) but I would if I thought I needed to. (I will be happy when the Eruv is done)

I see a lot of misconception here as well. In all honesty, Having "Less than observant Jews" do the protecting would present problems. When you have to transgress Jewish law, it is best that an observant Jew do it for you, because he will only transgress it to the smallest degree needed. However, having a non Jew do it would be best.

As far as the Jews who refuse to fight in Israel, you have to have an understanding of why they do that before you make assumptions about their motives. It doesnt have anything to do with them being pacifists.

Just get to a gun friendlier place. Because of the influence of the past 100 years of liberal reformed Judaism, the conservative trends in Judaism today, especialy among the orthodox, will be a hard battle in the north. We just dont have those problems down south.