Update on situation in Baltimore Jewish community

[Vern Humphrey]

I think it's time to talk to the delegates and senators from that area (is that Zirkin's district?) and ask them what they intend to do to rectify this horrible situation.

Excuse me for drawing the parallel, but this situation reminds me of the "disaster planning" in New Orleans. Corrupt and ideologically-driven government is willing to sacrifice your life if it fits the agenda.

 

[enfield]

There are times when a prudent man carries a firearm, whether it's legal or not. The cops aren't there to protect you and you're the best judge of conditions surrounding you at the moment. From what I've seen, people who righteously use firearms to protect themselves or others are seldom prosecuted for a firearms law violation. Even if this weren't so, it's better to save the lives of your loved ones and sit in jail than to sit on the beach alone.

 

[Strings]

huh... my first thought was "how many High Roaders of non-Jewish persuasion are in the area, and would be willing to give up a bit of time on saturdays? Were this in my area, *I* would...

 

[rms/pa]

up here in harrisburg our synagogs have hired armed guards, both in the parking lots and as reaction forces in the walking areas. each group carries one of those
mororola radios which goes to the radio car and base. you could have a cell tree if calls are permitted.

rms/pa

 

[Trebor]

I'll limit my comments to practical considerations:

I would not trust my life to an untested firearm. I would not buy a new firearm to use on the trip unless you have a chance to wring it out thoroughly first.

I advocate that you use whatever firearm you are most comfortable with and have the most confidence in. I think the specifics of revolover vs. auto in this circumstances should be determined by what you are most familiar with and could most easily operate under stress.

Btw, I also like the Safariland II speedloaders. They are quicker and easier to use then the HKS loaders. Sportsmans's Guide has them for about $11 if you can't find them locally.

I really don't see any advantages to moon clips on a defensive revolver. I think clips are better suited to competition guns. For the slight increase in speed you gain, you add an additional failure mode. Bent or damaged clips will bind up the gun.

 

[gripper]

I'm not Jewish...that said;if I resided anywhere nearby,I'd gladly volunteer to hang out with you down there.Hell,I'd even sport a Yarmulke just to bait the @sshole that thinkratpacking and assaulting people isworthgy of "initiation" ....even for the NOI dip????z.Any ideas anyone???

 

[dodging230grainers]

I was born and raised Jewish in Houston, TX.
Houston is a pretty cool city, and it has a very large jewish community as well as a very large gun community Get the best of both worlds and move down here

 

[chaim]

OK, there is a lot to respond to, I apologize about the length and I apologize if I missed you. Oh, and thanks for all the replies so far.

I do want to say in response to several who mentioned a shotgun as being better for home defense than just a handgun- I agree. I don't live within the community. I stay with a friend when I'm there on the sabbath (almost every Sabbath) or our holidays. At home I have a 12ga pump and/or a pistol caliber carbine ready, my SKS can be put into action quickly (it isn't loaded, but I have about 100 rounds on stripper clips) and I could load up my AR if I really needed to (and if I had the time as the mags are kept unloaded).

However, when staying with a friend I can only really take a handgun, preferably one that is on the smallish side. Also, some of my "tactical" thoughts here are for carry (when somewhere I can/do carry), and when staying in a hotel or with a friend when one can't have as many options available as when at home.

I do also want to clarify, my inability to carry (assuming I've decided not to break the law) has nothing to do with my religion at this point (the crime is bad enough that carrying a gun on the sabbath would probably be fine religiously) and everything do with Maryland state law.

Guess Justin thought I crossed the line.

AFS

I don't remember the specific post, but I do want to say that I saw and took no offense to what AFS said. I know him from Taurus Talk where I trust him enough that I made him one of the managers of my site. I'm sorry that there was a misunderstanding about something he posted. Anyway, I don't want to step on any toes here, but I wanted to be sure it was clear I'm OK with AFS all the way.

And now I'll go out on a limb and probably provoke someone's ire. I grew up in "the north" and got all the typical brainwashing about endemic antisemitisim in the South - but it is all [expletive] nonsense

I love the South, well I love Southerners. I absolutely hate the heat and humidity. I do still hope to move to Pittsburgh, good weather and good gun laws, but probably won't happen until I'm done with grad school (which I'm just starting next year).

Were your progenitors, who left Europe in advance of the Shoah (I'm guessing) - were they cowards, or simply people who were smart enough to get out before it hit the fan?

I understand your point, and I don't see leaving a bad situation as cowardice, but in the case of my ancestors they were neither cowards who ran nor people who left particularly early. My great-grandfather left Russia to avoid the anti-semitic draft which at the time required drafted Jews to serve 20 years in (usually) some of the worst anti-semitic units of the Czar's army. My great-grandmother left Russia after a pogrom left her entire family (except for a sister who was already in the US) dead along with most of her villiage. Of course, that was well before Hitler, it was even before the Communist Revolution.

Don't some groups of Jews refuse to fight even in Israel? Against their religious beliefs similar to some like the Amish or other Christian groups?

Judaism is definately not a pacifist religion. Some Reform Jews are pacifists, many members of liberal religions (which Reform is) mistake liberal politics for religion.

However, Judaism is not pacifist by any stretch of the imagination. What you are thinking of is some Orthodox groups are not fans of the state of Israel as it currently exists and don't want to overly support the state. These particular Orthhodox groups (there are Orthodox who strongly support the state as well BTW) have some major beefs with the State as it exists (it is very anti-religious, to the degree that in the beginning of the state religious kids were kidnapped from parents and brought up non-religious by the state) and most don't want to serve the state they oppose.

However, many who are in that camp find other ways to serve without serving the state quite as directly- the police, citizens patrols, civil defense groups, paramedics/rescue services, etc. None are motivated by pacifism, only politics.

Me and my one of my friends in the area where thinking about this. under the law with security gaurds being able to pack heat. Could a security firm be setup and then use volunteer, or perhaps gaurds paid an honary salary of a dollar, be able to legally arm themsevles for escorts and security of the synagogue?

You know, that may just be the most practical idea yet. I don't know if you could incorporate a volunteer armed security "company", if so that may be the best solution.

I think there are more than enough gunnies in the Baltimore Orthodox Jewish community to man a decent volunteer security company.

if the nature of the community is anything similar to the one around the near Main Line here in the Philadelphia area, it's beginning to grey a bit at the temples, and internal resources might be a bit limited.

FS, it is probably more like the Rhawnhurst/Northeast community. Used to be a great neighborhood (Greenspring is still considered a higher end, upper middle class neighborhood), less money than Main Line, but with some questionable neighbors. Age wise, not at all. It is one of the, if not the, fastest growing Orthodox community in the country. Lots of young families staying, and lots of new young families coming in. Money in most of the Baltimore community is pretty limited however.

my first thought was "how many High Roaders of non-Jewish persuasion are in the area, and would be willing to give up a bit of time on saturdays?

They'll have the same problem I have (except they'll have more choice in the matter). If they don't carry there could be danger, but MD makes it illegal to carry.

 

[Strings]

>They'll have the same problem I have (except they'll have more choice in the matter). If they don't carry there could be danger, but MD makes it illegal to carry.<

Yeah, but a pick-up game of baseball at a nearby park while y'all are at servives would be kinda fun, wouldn't it? Would explain the presence of the bats at least...

 

[Waitone]

Makes me made enought to chew nails. No one should have to tolerate such.

My two cents: do what you can to protect the group per some of the suggestions. The real work needs to be done with LE and political vermin.

Form a barbershop quartet and learn to sing loud, long and in four part harmony to the police. Video is nice, but written reports out the yingyang are essential. Get a stack of reports in the police's possession then make a few calls to local media. Visual media is good for a quick hit, but you also need to find an investigative ink-stained wretch and bring them into your confidence. Once you get some play begin working the elected vermin. They are the ones creating the problem. Be relentless and brutal. They are the ones who make the decisions for which you will pay the consequences. While all this is going on find a local radio talk show host and keep sending 'em information.

You have a major problem on you hands.

BTW, make a call to JPFO and see what they think of the situation and if they have any useful suggestions.

Keep us posted.

 

[Felonious Monk]

That is an unacceptable intolerable situation, Chaim

+1. You've spoken in the past about moving to another location. I don't advocate running away from the situation, but long-term it still might be a consideration.

Re: the revo/semiauto debate: CR Sam always said Revolver for defense (as in home), S/A for offense (as in carry). In multiple attacker situations, you may need the CZ and 15+1. Grab an extra mag or two, as well.

Shalom, friend.
FM

 

[Hardware]

Chaim,
One possibility that may aid you in avoiding a gun conviction is a legal dodge. Find a wheelgun that shoots a cartridge still in production that predates the gun control laws.

The reason this comes to mind is the fact that I own one. A S&W first model new departure manufactured prior to 1898 predates all the gun laws on the books. It is grandfathered in and (in theory) is exempt from legal restrictions. S&W will supply documenting paperwork for a small fee if you provide photos of the firearm. A first model new departure can still be found on Gun Broker or Guns America on a regular basis for $200-$400, depending on condition.

There are 2 major problems with this though; 1) There is no case law on this approach. 2) The cartridges are fairly anemic. This particular revolver is available in 32 S&W and 38 S&W. Both of these calibers do still have more than enough power to defeat the bone thickness of the thickest forehead and make Mr. Brain wish he'd stayed in bed.

Good luck.

 

[The_Antibubba]

Shooting is too good for animals like that

Chaim, I think you need a Chanukah pistol.

You know, eight tiny lights that represent something much bigger.

Just make sure you use Jewish bullets. They look just like regular bullets, but with the tips cut off!


I joke, Chaim, because i can't be there to help.

Maybe the police can assign some undercover Jews-it worked pretty well on "NYPD Blue".

 

[Strings]

SO... does it take an Israeli pistol to be kosher, or would a 1911 qualify if blessed by a rabbi? I'm gonna assume anything by Mauser, Walther, and possibly H&K wouldn't qualify...

Put me in the same boat as Antibubba: I REALLY want to be there for ya, and can't...

 

[Jmurman]

Chaim,

I live on the other side of town from you (Perry Hall), and I agrre...there has been NO mention of this in ANY news or newspaper.

At some point you might have to decide if Sabbatical Law overrules self protection. If 5-15 of you guys can lay down a wall of pepper spray, they might get the message. However, if it's a one or two person group, then you'll continue to get picked off.

I agree, MD carry laws suck, but you know as well as I do that its hard to overturn 30 years of liberal crap with just one administration.

 

[Byron Quick]

chaim,

I'd look into forming a corporation or maybe a LLC for security to get the carry permits. There's no need to mention that it's volunteer. Pay the security guards a dollar a year. Talk with lawyers and accountants about how to set it up. Provisions for volunteers who sustained permanent injuries would be the toughest part.

Have 20 'security guards' walking down the street with one person who is being guarded. Have a contract valid under Maryland law between that person and his security guards. Get contracts between the security guard company and the synagogues. With those contracts, you'd be walking to work at the synagogue and therefore the security CCW is valid. Wonder if security guards are required to be uniformed in Maryland? If so, a symptathetic rabbi could ask for an exception.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

my first thought was "how many High Roaders of non-Jewish persuasion are in the area, and would be willing to give up a bit of time on saturdays? Were this in my area, *I* would...

So would I. But all the time I'd be muttering to myself, "I pay taxes for cops to do this job, but they won't so I have to do it myself. And if the cops would do the job, they wouldn't do it unarmed."

 

[shaldag]

I am new to these forums. Strange, I log onto this to talk about guns, and I find this thread. It is somewhat disturbing.

I am an Orthodox Jew, and I guss I pretty much qualify as an Orthodox gun nut, since I attend the synagogue and the range with about the same frequency.

I have lived in a number of different US states (as well as Israel) and have had to deal with a large number of different laws regarding handgun carry. I don't know anything about Baltimore, except having visited Johns Hopkins there, and thinking that I would sure want a carry permit if I worked there.

Anyway, on topic, and I hope that nobody will consider advice from a forums newbie as too out of line.

In a number of states with extremely restrictive carry laws, certain lawyers make a career out of helping individuals obtain permits. It might be worthwhile to see if there is someone like that in Baltimore. Of course, if the law is too restrictive (as in NYC for example) nothing will help if you are not a celebrity or are politically connected in some way.

As far as Jewish law goes, the main religious objection to carry is that one is required to obey "the law of the land". If you can obtain a permit, then there is no problem at all with carrying a pistol for self-defense on Sabbath or Holiday, as it falls under possibilty of saving a life. And as far as entry into a house of worship, Jewish law does not prohibit this at all. The reference to having weapons in the Temple was not relevant, as synagogues today, while partially replacing the Temple, are not the same thing under Jewish law. And when the Jews returned from Babylon and rebuilt the Temple, we did so with "one hand on the sword" to protect themselves.

How do you think that we do things in Israel? A number of folks attend the synagogue while carrying.

Just one question, if I may? Have you considered martial arts of some kind? Before anyone jumps on me here, I do not consider martial arts and handgun carry interchangeable. But knowing something like this can sure help, especially if there is no option to carry.

I sure hope your situation improves. Stay safe.

 

[shaldag]

SO... does it take an Israeli pistol to be kosher, or would a 1911 qualify if blessed by a rabbi? I'm gonna assume anything by Mauser, Walther, and possibly H&K wouldn't qualify...

I can assure you that the HK USP is an exceptionally Kosher pistol. So is the Glock 19, by the way.

 

[Vern Humphrey]

Have you considered martial arts of some kind?

Good post, but martial arts require a certain amount of physical ability that is usually beyond the elderly people who are the most vulnerable victims.

 

[Dave Markowitz]

Chaim,
One possibility that may aid you in avoiding a gun conviction is a legal dodge. Find a wheelgun that shoots a cartridge still in production that predates the gun control laws.

{clip}

Oy vey. This isn't going to work. It's still a "gun" or at least a weapon in the eyes of the law. If you're going to carry illegally, don't depend on using an antique to keep you out of legal trouble.

 

[chaim]

Chaim,
One possibility that may aid you in avoiding a gun conviction is a legal dodge. Find a wheelgun that shoots a cartridge still in production that predates the gun control laws.

The reason this comes to mind is the fact that I own one. A S&W first model new departure manufactured prior to 1898 predates all the gun laws on the books. It is grandfathered in and (in theory) is exempt from legal restrictions.

I looked into something like this some time ago.

My thinking was that since blackpowder and antique firearms were not considered firearms under federal law for purchase so no background check was required I might have a solution. MD is one of the states that follows federal law on this, believe it or not MD is not one of the more restrictive states, so MD does not consider a blackpowder or antique firearm to be a firearm when purchasing it. No background check, no waiting period or one a month limit on handguns, etc.

So I was thinking of carrying a blackpowder revolver on the assumption that it wasn't covered by MD law as a firearm. I love revolvers anyway, and consider how impressive a .45cal 7.5" Colt 1861 Army or Remington 1858 New Army clone would look, might not even need to fire it. Heck, if you had multiple attackers or if you missed the flame and smoke coming out of it alone may be impressive enough to make your remaining attackers pee themselves and run.

Unfortunately, when I looked into it further I found that MD law doesn't consider such guns to be firearms for purchase, but once you own them they are considered firearms under the law and subject to all MD restrictions on carry, transport and possession.

 

[K-Romulus]

MD private security law is tough

Chaim:

I thought about forming my own "private security" company to get around the BS Maryland laws. What I found was pretty discouraging. (I am not a MD lawyer, but this is what I saw when I looked into the issue)

There is a whole set of laws governing "private security" in MD. To make it short, they should be called the "Retired/Former LEO Job Security Acts." :banghead:

To own or run a private security company, you need to be licensed by the MSP. To get the license, the law says you need "experience" in that you either have to be a former LEO or have 5+ years of experience in private security as a "private detective," not just a security guard. Each of your employees has to also be licensed to be a private security guard, but without the same "experience" requirements.

(Taken from the free Lexis website for the MD Code: http://198.187.128.12/maryland/lpext.dll?f=templates&fn=fs-main.htm&2.0)

§ 19-301. License required; individual or firm may qualify.

(a) License required.- Except as otherwise provided in this title, a person shall be licensed by the Secretary as a security guard agency before the person may:

(1) conduct a business that provides security guard services in the State; and

(2) solicit to engage in a business that provides security guard services in the State.

(b) Individual or firm may qualify.- An individual or a firm may qualify for a license as a security guard agency.

Ok, great. What does this mean?

§ 19-302. Qualifications of applicants.

(a) In general.- To qualify for a license, an applicant shall meet the requirements of this section.

(b) Representative member of firm.- If the applicant is a firm, the firm shall appoint a firm member as the representative member to make the application on behalf of the firm.

(c) Character and reputation.-

(1) If the applicant is an individual, the applicant shall be of good character and reputation.

(2) If the applicant is a firm, each firm member shall be of good character and reputation.

(d) Age.- The individual applicant or the representative member shall be at least 25 years old.

(e) Experience.- The applicant shall meet the experience requirements of § 19-303 of this subtitle

OK, we need experience. Great? Nope!

§ 19-303. Experience and training.

(a) Definition.- In this section, "organized police agency" means:

(1) a police department of the State or of a county or municipal corporation of the State;

(2) a private police department that is allowed to enroll its officers in approved Maryland Police Training Commission schools and academies; or

(3) a law enforcement agency of the United States, of any state, or of any county or municipal corporation of any state.

(b) Required experience and training.- An individual applicant or, if the applicant is a firm, the representative member shall have:

(1) at least 5 years experience as a full-time private detective certified under Title 13 of this article;

(2) at least:

(i) 5 years of experience as a full-time police officer with an organized police agency; and

(ii) completed successfully a police officer training course that is recognized and approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission;

(3) at least 3 years of experience in an investigative capacity as a detective while serving as a police officer with an organized police agency;

(4) at least:

(i) 3 years of experience in an investigative capacity in any unit of the United States, of the State, or of a county or municipal corporation of the State for the purpose of law enforcement; and

(ii) completed successfully the police officer training that is recognized and approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission;

(5) at least:

(i) 5 years of experience as a full-time fire investigator for a fire department or law enforcement agency of the State or of a county or municipal corporation of the State; and

(ii) completed successfully the training certified by the Maryland Police Training Commission or the Maryland Fire-Rescue Education and Training Commission; or

(6) at least:

(i) 5 years of experience as a full-time correctional supervisor in a correctional facility in the State; and

(ii) completed successfully the training required by the Correctional Training Commission.

:banghead:

Maybe you guys could ID a sympathetic security guard company to help sponsor your security guard licenses? That way you would be "official" under the law, but still do your own thing . . .

There may be a "loophole" in that you guys wouldn't be providing this security as a "business":

§ 19-101. Definitions.
(a) In general.- In this title the following words have the meanings indicated.
. . .

(k) Security guard agency.-

(1) "Security guard agency" means a person who conducts a business that provides security guard services.

(2) "Security guard agency" does not include a person that is primarily engaged in the business of owning, maintaining, or otherwise managing property.

(l) Security guard services.- "Security guard services" includes any activity that is performed for compensation as a security guard to protect any individual or property[, except the activities of an individual while performing as:

(1) a marine guard or ship watchman, regardless of whether the guard or watchman is stationed aboard a ship or on a pier; or

(2) a special police officer appointed and while performing under Title 3, Subtitle 3 of the Public Safety Article or § 16-16 of the Code of Public Local Laws of Baltimore City.

But the "loophole" will have to be analyzed by a real-live MD lawyer . . .

As if I hadn't written enough:

Plainclothes security is handled under the MD "private detective" laws (MD Code Section 13). . . with basically the same licensing requirements . . .

 

[chaim]

SO... does it take an Israeli pistol to be kosher, or would a 1911 qualify if blessed by a rabbi? I'm gonna assume anything by Mauser, Walther, and possibly H&K wouldn't qualify...

Actually, I think a Mauser or Walther would be very good Jewish guns. During Israel's War of Independence they had a lot of trouble arming themselves as all the major powers had imposed an arms imbargo on them. However, as Germany had just fought and lost a world war there were military arms scattered all over Germany. Israeli agents scoured Europe for arms and many German arms made their way to Israel to help win Israeli independence. Thus, many Nazi guns helped create the State of Israel.

So from a Jewish perspective, some of those guns certainly have an ugly history, but some have a great history as well.

I am an Orthodox Jew, and I guss I pretty much qualify as an Orthodox gun nut

Welcome to THR, there are a few of us here. Definately be on the lookout for "The Rabbi", he isn't a rabbi but he is a very special person and great resource on guns.

...since I attend the synagogue and the range with about the same frequency.

I hope you are a woman, otherwise to go to the range as much as shul....how do you keep from going broke?

Anyway, on topic, and I hope that nobody will consider advice from a forums newbie as too out of line.

Horrible. Terrible. How uncouth and rude

In a number of states with extremely restrictive carry laws, certain lawyers make a career out of helping individuals obtain permits. It might be worthwhile to see if there is someone like that in Baltimore. Of course, if the law is too restrictive (as in NYC for example) nothing will help if you are not a celebrity or are politically connected in some way.

MD is an odd case. For most people we may as well be a non-issue state, but for some people it is near "shall-issue" and you don't need to be politically connected. Unfortunately, I don't have the money to open a check cashing store or restaraunt (and thus deal with a lot of cash), gun store, or jewelry store so I can easily obtain a permit. Becoming a security guard won't do much good since I could only carry while working. No one has told me they were going to kill me (and did so in a way which was obviously serious) in front of witnesses and there is no paper trail of a series of such events documented with the police, and I have not had a series of serious attacks against me personally. Of course that last set of circumstances is not defacto "shall-issue" in MD, unlike the property situations which are, that allowed catagory only makes it possible to get a permit. For the rest of us who want a permit- forget it. I don't even think there is a loophole that a good lawyer can find since the application specifically states that self-defense is not a sufficient reason to apply unless you have a documented and credible threat against your life.

 

[chaim]

K-Romulus, I thought I had a workable solution when I read this:

To own or run a private security company, you need to be licensed by the MSP. To get the license, the law says you need "experience" in that you either have to be a former LEO

A friend of mine is a retired NY police officer. In fact, his rabbi was trying to get him a carry permit specifically so he could carry to synagogue and provide (unofficial and unpaid) security to the shul (synagogue). I don't know what ever became of this. Anyway, I was thinking I could talk to him about being the head of such a thing, until I got to this part of your post:

(b) Required experience and training.- An individual applicant or, if the applicant is a firm, the representative member shall have:...

(2) at least:

(i) 5 years of experience as a full-time police officer with an organized police agency; and

(ii) completed successfully a police officer training course that is recognized and approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission;

(i) is no problem, 5 years experience? My friend is a retired NYC cop. But part (ii) is a problem...
and completed a police training course approved by the Maryland Police Training Commission, he was a NYC cop not a MD cop. Oh well, back to square one:banghead: