Update on the .50 GI 1911...

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A couple questions come forth. How much power do you want? Where is the line drawn between a non-magnum versus magnum? I'm shooting a .45 Colt that pushes a 300 grn bullet at approx 1000 fps. It's not abusive, but it's not really conducive to fast and accurate shooting as with a .40 or .45. Up the power on big bore non magnums? Reload for it and you can load .45 ACP as hot as you want. I won't stand behind you when you shoot them though.

Anemic? Yes, it is. Manufacturers have to load for the weakest link, but there are plenty of other options. Cor-Bon comes to mind.

As far as modernizing large bore pistols, the only thing I can come up with is the DE. It's a miserable gun to shoot though. Large, clunky and heavy.
Click to expand...

Even the +P .45 loads from Cor-bon and Winchester ect. seem weak to me for a big bore. I mean we're talking a minimal gain in energy over a 9 and usually less than a hot .40. If I go to larger bore I also want more power not just "a bigger hole", if the large diameter bullet even manages to penetrate through and through....more power goood....

I'd like to stay subsonic and still retain an advantage over calibers like .40, this is why I was thinking 300gr. or around that range. Seems to me a 300gr. bullet @ 1000-1050 out of a standard 1911 would be very hard on the gun and downright dangerous even, this is why I talk about modernizing them to be able to handle it without having to shoot a DE/Grizzly sized gun. They did it with smaller calibers, what seems to be the roadblock with creating a higher pressure .45 on up in a normal sized gun??? It seems to me the roadblock is that .45ACP is already popular just as it is, so there's no incentive to do so.

I thought according to the early posts in this thread that the .50 would fit in a standard 1911 frame, but according to you guys this is not the case. But really, how much larger would it HAVE to be? Not that much I would guess.
 
BluesBear,

Would it be able to anything the .45acp can't do except for punch a .05" larger hole?
Click to expand...

How come when a person who totes a .40 asks that same question of a .45 ACP fan it results in a lot of harrumphing? When does .05" more stop being good? Is it somewhere between .355" and .401"? Between .401" and .451"? Or between .451" and .500"?

I thought the only reason cowboys carried .45's is because they didn't make a .46? :confused:

;) :D
 
Impressive

esheato asked:

Am I the only one that isn't impressed?

Nope. I'm of the mindset that it'll be all the rage for about a year and
fall outta grace...and for many of the same reasons that you mentioned.

But then, on the other hand, to parapharase Mae West...
"Darlin'! Too much of a good thing is...mmmarvelous!"
 
Tamara, it's different going down

in size. A .40/10mm in a 1911 size frame has a higher working pressure due to the increases steel surrounding it.
Same goes for a .38super/9mm.

Since you can load the smaller calibers to a higher working pressure you can raise the power level.

Just as you can load a .44 magnum hotter in a S&W n-frame than you can .45Colt in the same frame size because of the difference in cylinder walls.

If you put a .50cal cartridge in something with the same external dimensions as a standard 1911 you'll have less steel to contain the pressure.

If, however, you slightly beefed it up, so it will handle higher pressures, yet retained the same ergonomics as the 1911, THEN you'd have an argument for the benefits of the .50 over the .45.
 
I think all the people rushing valiantly to defend their beloved .45 ACP can relax. Anybody who can read knows this is intended as a niche cartridge, and there's not a thing wrong with that. .44 Magnum still sells just fine, despite .454 Casull, .480 Ruger, and .500 S&W. Matter of fact, it outsells all three. Why? Because it does the job just fine. Some folks just want something new, or different, or bigger, or louder, or whatever, and good for them, I say! (Besides, it helps keep me in business... :D ) Matter of fact, I'm feeling a mite different myself; I think I'll tote my .38 Super today. :)


(PS: My prognostication for this thread? Here you go: I'll wager that .480 Ruger is dead as a doornail in five years... ;) )
 
BluesBear,

If you put a .50cal cartridge in something with the same external dimensions as a standard 1911 you'll have less steel to contain the pressure.
Click to expand...

Yes, but .45 ACP already operates at such low pressures, what's wrong with another low-pressure golf-ball-mortar of a cartridge, just lobbing slightly bigger golfballs? I think this came up at TFL in a thread about a hypothetical ".50 ACP", but I'm too lazy to go search...
 
Yes, that's all I'm saying! Slightly beef it up if necessary, but there's no reason it has to be DE sized if it's not shooting 325gr. .50AE @ 1,500fpe LoL! We're talking maybe HALF that kind of energy here at the top end.
 
The Thread

Tamara said:
PS: My prognostication for this thread? Here you go: I'll wager that .480 Ruger is dead as a doornail in five years...

Yep...and the .500 S&W likely won't be the hot topic more than two or three.

I'm a proponent of the heavy bullet/moderate velocity mindset. Low
pressures equate to longer service life of the gun and your wrists.
Increasing the bullet weight and velocity have a price in that it's
harder on the platform and the shooter. If you need more power, you need more bullet rather than more velocity...YMMV

Going to a 300-325 grain bullet even at 800 fps works in opposition to
the very thing thing that has made the .45ACP hang on for a century...
A balance of power and control in a portable sidearm. Shift the balance
in one direction or the other and you've negated the advantage.

Any increase in performance gained by a 300 grain bullet at 800 f/s would
be about as much difference as between the .40 and the .45ACp...definitely
a factor, albeit a slight one. Bump it up to 325/900 and you're on a fine
line between being able to control it and not. In a defensive sidearm, you
need to be able to bring the gun down out of recoil quickly more than you
need big booms and 45 degree recoil arcs. How many serious pistoleers can you find who carries a Model 29 stoked with full-power ammo?
Very few, and most of those could be stunt doubles for Hulk Hogan.
You need comfort and portability rather than a 4 or 5-pound handgun that
you could use to brain a Brahma Bull. You need affordable ammo so that
you can use the gun enough to use it well.

Finally....you need ammunition availability. .45 and 9mm is in every
sporting goods shop and rural hardware store in the country. .38 Special
and .357 Magnum...40 S&W and, to a slightly lesser degree, 10mm. How
many Ma and Pa operations in rural Montana or Wyoming will carry an
expensive proprietary round for one chance in a thousand that somebody will need a box of it?

Just a nickel's worth from an ever practical standpoint.
Tuner
 
If, however, you slightly beefed it up, so it will handle higher pressures, yet retained the same ergonomics as the 1911, THEN you'd have an argument for the benefits of the .50 over the .45.
Click to expand...

Well, if you read the specs on the gun you'd know that it has a proprietary frame and slide. So they've probably done exactly what you decribed. Likewise, they used a bushngless bull barrel, presumably so they could have more steel to play with to make it physically stronger.

Here is a 10mm bull barrel, note how much thicker the barrel walls are than a conventional bushing barrel in a 1911. Even opened up 0.1", you'd have plenty of steel to handle .45 ACP-ish pressures, if not more. With a proprietary slide you could probably increase the outside diameter of the chamber to get more steel to play with there, too.

muzzle2.jpg


Just speculating, but it appears that some actual thought was put into the thing.

I have no personal interest in this, aside from the, "hey, look at this neat thing!" factor. I'm sure it will be a novelty cartridge, and doubt I'll even consider buying one. But on the flipside, it seems some folks are assuming the guys behind the idea are total morons before anyone has laid hands on the thing. Maybe a bit premature? ;)
 
Looky

http://www.classichandguns.com/50GIpage.html

Looks like Vic Tibbets has his hands in it up to the elbow, so it will
be a well thought out, quality pistol. Now all we need to know about is
ammunition cost and availability...That could be the fly in the ointment
if you have to give 2 bucks a round...if you can find it.

Looks good so far...We shall see, I suppose.
:scrutiny:
 
Did it say what the capacity is? I didn't see that in there anywhere.

I'd guess it's probably 6 or 7 shots in the magazine. What do you all think?

Wes
 
Hey Tuner,

Did you miss my link to that exact web site on the 1st page of this topic? :D
 
I have not been trying to bash the .50GI, just trying to be logical about it.

You will NOT be able to use .50GI in a standard 1911 pattern .45acp magazine. It just won't fit unless you get some of that classified Area 51 "aluminum foil" to make the mag bodies.

In my opinion, what the selling point of this newly designed (redesigned?) pistol will be is that;

1) It will be just ever so slightly beefier than a standard 1911 so it will be useable in existing holsters.

2) Most or all of the internal parts will interchange so you can Burger King it.

3) Since the .50GI has a rebated rim you will be able to buy a .45acp conversion kit to use on your .50GI. Probably with a metal magazine for .50GI and a metal lined plastic mag for .45.

4) Being slightly beefier there could even be a conversion kit for one of the hot rodded .45s. (.45 Super, .460 Rowland etc.)

Will it sell? Sure it will. The mere mention of .50 excites many people.
Will it last? I think it's got a better chance than the .45 GAP.

Who knows, if Kimber makes one it's possible the Tacoma PD might even adopt it.
 
From Ruger forum

Thanks to cas6969 at Ruger forum(over there, I'm DB2 :cool: )...

http://www.rugerforum.com/ubb/Forum1/HTML/005014.html

(info provided by on online buddy who contacted them)
The 50 GI is a proprietary Guncrafter Industries cartridge and was developed from the ground up specifically for our Model No. 1 pistol.
It is a very strong, thick-walled cartridge, which when loaded is approximately the same OAL as a 45 ACP round.
Due to the large caliber, the cartridge operates at relatively low pressures and has a long reloading life.
The concept was to create a practical .50 caliber 1911 without unnecessary bulk or weight, but with increased knock-down power.
Factory loads for the 50 GI typically drives a 300 grain bullet at 700 -725 fps, which translates into a 210 power factor.
This is achieved without loss of controllability - firing this load feels comparable to shooting a std. 230 hard ball factory round.
However, the 50 GI is a very versatile cartridge and can be loaded to higher or lower levels, as desired.
Factory loaded ammunition, brass and reloading dies are available through Guncrafter Industries.

The retail price of the Model No. 1 is $2895.00.

Extra magazines are $44.95.
50 GI factory loaded is $14.25/box of 20.

GI manufactures a conversion kit for the Model No. 1, which enables the user to shoot .45 ACP ammunition in the Model No. 1.
The conversion unit retails at $365.00, includes 8 rd. magazine."


$3K???? UHHH...... Never mind.
Click to expand...
 
The Bottom Line

The retail price of the Model No. 1 is $2895.00.

Extra magazines are $44.95.
50 GI factory loaded is $14.25/box of 20.

Well now, lemme see...I guess I'll run out and spend nearly 3 grand
for a pistol that takes 75 cents per round ammo, in magazines that cost triple what I give for Metalforms so I can duplicate the .45 ACP power
factor...and maybe bump it up a little by handloading on a die set that
probably costs 75 bucks a set with bullets that cost 40 cents a pop...Yep. That's for me!:rolleyes:

Sounds like one of those things that I alwyas needed, but never realized it
'til just now...kinda like the .32 Magnum revolver.

Pass...I'll stick with the ol' .45

Cheers!

Tuner
 
Is there any reason to think that info is credible ?

If so, I'd agree that a $3,000 gun in a wildcat caliber is pretty much a waste of everyone's time. I do find it hard to believe that anybody would be insane enough to make a $3,000 handgun their initial business venture, though, unless it is just a testbed for a more affordable gun later.

Looking at the ballistics... 300gr @ 725 ft/sec works out to 350 ft-lbs, or about the same as GI hardball, and a Power Factor of 218. By way of contrast, factory 10mm ammo will actually deliver up to DOUBLE the muzzle energy of .50 GI. Of course, the .50 GI has .1", but the 10mm can easily expand to 0.70" (and do it reliably due to its high velocity), whereas you'll be hard pressed to find a .50 pistol bullet that was designed to expand at the extremely low velocities .50 GI is operating at. Bullets made for loading .50 AE, for instance, are expected to expand at 1,300+ ft/sec.
 
At 725 fps, what's the point? Sure, the round is just a tad larger than .45 acp rounds, but traveling slower. The .45 acp is already described as slow and heavy and so this would be really slow and heavier. I am not sure that makes it a better caliber for defensive purposes. Penetration is going to be compromised, I would guess, and stopping performance not necessarily better and not so much better to warrant the cost difference. Compared to the .50 AE, the .50 GI is anemic.

Cute gun, nifty idea, too bad about being performance challenged.
 
Hard Cast

Andrew said:

It doesn't seem to do anything the .45 ACP does with 300 hardcast lead bullets.

Now yer speakin' MY lingo. I cast and shoot the 255 grain semi-wadcutter
in my 1911s some...(They actually fall out of the molds at 260 grains.)
6 grains of Unique and that bullet make for a real thumper on the steel plates, and penetrate 8 inches deeper into gelatin than the hardball 230
at 850 fps. Velocity is just a tick under 800, and the gun doesn't seem to
mind a limited amount one bit. They feed, and there is NO short-cycle issue
whatsoever.

The 250-grain Speer swaged SWC bullet is a good substitute for those
who don't cast or need to buy 500 commercial bullets.

Cheers!
Tuner
 
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