UPS guy telling me I can ship primers without hazmat charge

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longdayjake

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Today I went and shipped a stock via UPS. While I was there I got to talking to the guy taking packages. He was telling me about a bunch of people sending primers and powder out through his depot without paying hazmat. He said they just have to be declared ORMD. Is he mistaken? If I were to ship something through there at his advice could I get in trouble or would it be his fault?
 
Powder and primers are not ORM-D. Your guy is wrong. Finished ammo is ORM-D. A bunch of guys are sending stuff out in violation. To ship with a HazMat tag you need to be a hazmat shipper having taken the classes and gotten certified. All those folks selling primers for $100 a K and Varget for $40 a pound on Gunbroker? Most of em shipped out illegally.
 
Legal answer:

There is no law requiring that anyone charge a fee for handling hazardous materials. It is UPS policy to charge the fee. From their rate guide:

Carrier may accept shipments of hazardous materials or hazardous substances subject to all requirements of the U.S. Department of Transportation and the Environmental Protection Agency governing transportation of such commodities. Shipper shall comply with all governmental requirements including but not limited to any special labeling, packaging requirements and bills of lading descriptions. When tendered by Shipper and accepted by Carrier, such shipments shall also be subject to the following provisions:

Applicable Commodities under this rule Any shipment containing commodities that are classified as hazardous by the Department of Transportation as published in the Code of Federal Regulations (CFR), Title 49.

Per Shipment Charge: $20.00 (See notes 1 through 8)

Note 1: In addition to the per shipment charge, if Carrier must move shipment over a circuitous route due to local, state, or federal highway restrictions, Carrier will prepare a designated route plan over the most practical and approved route for movement of such commodities. If the total distance from the initial origin to the final destination via the designated route of movement exceeds 115% of the mileage over the normal route of movement, all distance in excess of 115% will be charged for at the rate of $3.78 per mile.

Note 2: If Carrier must purchase special permits for transportation movement, Carrier will purchase such permits and collect the purchase price plus a service fee of $18.00 for each permit purchased.

Note 3: Any fines or penalties imposed on Carrier as a result of Shippers failure to meet regulatory requirements will be charged back to Shipper.

Note 4: The per shipment charge accruing under this item will be collected from the party responsible for payment of the line haul freight charges.

Note 5: Nothing in this rule shall obligate Carrier to handle any commodity not packaged properly for transportation or from transporting shipments beyond the scope of Carriers operating certificates. No shipments of hazardous waste (defined by CFR 49 section 171.3) nor shipments of radioactive materials (except in limited quantities of class 7 materials described under section CFR 49 sections 173.422 and 173.424) will be accepted for transportation.

Note 6: Carrier guaranteed service programs are not applicable in connection with shipments of hazardous materials unless specifically pre-approved by Carrier before shipment.

Note 7: Any bill of lading notation limiting full access to a vehicle or any delays caused by a regulatory agency (or any party to the transportation), will be subject to exclusive use of vehicle and/or storage charges found in items 470 and 910 herein.

Note 8: If the shipment is refused by the consignee or, for any other reason not the fault of Carrier, cannot be delivered to the consignee, Carrier will provide notice to the Shipper that the freight is undelivered and subject to storage charges (see item 910). If, within 10 days of such notice, Shipper does not provide written disposition instructions to Carrier, Carrier, at its sole discretion, shall be entitled, but not obligated, to dispose of the shipment. Shipper shall be responsible for all disposal costs and for all storage charges up to the time of disposal or other disposition of the shipment.
 
There is no law requiring that anyone charge a fee for handling hazardous materials. It is UPS policy to charge the fee. From their rate guide:

But there is a requirement to properly certify the shipment. As Evan mentioned, primers are not "otherwise regulated;" they're HM.
 
There is no law requiring that anyone charge a fee for handling hazardous materials. It is UPS policy to charge the fee. From their rate guide:

I suppose it would be technically legal for them to take a loss on the cost of DOT compliance, but it wouldn't make good business sense.
 
According to 49 CFR 172-174, you as a Haz Mat employee (any person who is responsible for handling, packaging, labeling, inspecting, or transporting hazardous materials) need to be trained on:

General awareness training
Function-specific training
Safety training
Emergency response training
Security awareness training
In depth security training
Any other training required by OSHA, EPA, or other government or international agency

Once you complete the training, you then submit an application for haz mat shipping with a contract carrier, ie UPS or FedEx. You fill out the one page form, submit training certificates showing you are trained in accordance with the federal laws, and submit a sample record form for all the hazardous materials you will be shipping. They forward this to the security and haz mat division which approves the application. You are then approved to begin shipping hazardous materials with that shipping provider.

My company is now officially a haz mat certified shipper with FedEx. The training was pretty easy.

It isn't as simple as walking up to the counter and paying a fee. Primers and powder are NEVER ORM-D. They are always hazardous materials.

Primers and powder are both Class 1.4 Explosives. Smokeless powder and black powder for small arms can be reclassified as Hazard Class 4.1 Flammable Solid if packed in individual containers not greater than 8lbs and shipping packages no greater than 16lbs using type 4 fiberboard PG type 1 class box.

Ammunition is a Class 1.4 Explosive but allowed to be reclassed to ORM-D Small Arms Ammunition if packed tightly, primers are protected, and packaging is less than 66lbs.
 
Ship as much as you can before they bone you for the haz mat fee. Which they will.

Companies are in the business to maximize their profits. They love it when you have little or no choice. They collude between themselves to reduce the competition, and increase their profits.
 
Great advice. Willfully and knowingly break federal law which carries a $250,000 fine each occurrence for illegally shipping hazardous materials.

So what happens if you ship primers standard ground without complying and they are set off in transit? You are now personally liable for damage to other packages, vehicle damage, and any injury that occurred, not to mention the DOT will investigate this as it is a hazardous materials shipment. If you want to be childish and play games, please don't do it with hazardous materials. This stuff is not a joke and should not be treated lightly.
 
Say I have some new primed brass, or SG hulls no powder no bullets/shot. If I wanted to send them UPS Question is is that ORM-D or HAZMAT
 
Okay, so who classified the primers and powder that way? And where do you go to find out the classifications of shippable materials?
 
That cracks me up. I can order a 100+ lb crate of surplus 7.62x54R ammo, and its ORM-D, but a box of primers or a lb of powder needs an extra $20 fee (for what?)...
 
Small arms ammo hazards are fire and possibly light missiles (fragments). Bulk primers hazard is mass detonation (a bomb). Bulk powder hazard is mass fire. Loaded ammo is much safer than bulk components. Single round ignition rarely results in propagation.
 
If I work for primer making company, I would design and patent a safe package for primers that does not require Hazmat fees.
 
Bulk primers hazard is mass detonation (a bomb). Bulk powder hazard is mass fire. Loaded ammo is much safer than bulk components. Single round ignition rarely results in propagation.

Let's not get carried away. Primers are not "a bomb"--that's histrionic nonsense. Nor is smokeless powder particularly dangerous. It's nowhere near as great a fire hazard as the gasoline in the tank of the vehicle carrying it.
 
Let's not get carried away. Primers are not "a bomb"--that's histrionic nonsense. Nor is smokeless powder particularly dangerous. It's nowhere near as great a fire hazard as the gasoline in the tank of the vehicle carrying it.
I left out the word "potential." My apologies to the literalists.

I spent most of my adult life working with munitions. If you think primers will not mass detonate, dump a carton into a container and touch one off. I suggest you do so with a length of time fuze and an M60 igniter. I have not tested it, but I know people who were paid to do just that.

If I work for primer making company, I would design and patent a safe package for primers that does not require Hazmat fees.

Supposedly, the Federal packaging does just that.
 
That's if they are "loose" or otherwise "having contact with each other." The factory package separates each primer. To claim factory sealed primers in their boxes will just up and detonate is absolute hogwash.

dump a carton into a container and touch one off.

Why would I do that? Obviously that's not a safe way to ship primers.
 
If I work for primer making company, I would design and patent a safe package for primers that does not require Hazmat fees.
It doesn't matter how you package it. The fact that they are primers means they are hazardous materials.

Supposedly, the Federal packaging does just that.
Completely false. No packaging is exempt from hazmat fees. If you ship primers you must pay a hazmat fee. There are no exceptions.
 
It doesn't matter how you package it. The fact that they are primers means they are hazardous materials.
Completely false. No packaging is exempt from hazmat fees. If you ship primers you must pay a hazmat fee. There are no exceptions.
OK, then it is the task not for technicians, but for lawyers. Primed brass is not hazmat, right? I would design a cartridge, something like 25ACP in diameter, but with shorter shell to make the box of a 1000 smaller, and name the product "primed shells" instead of "primers".
 
The factory package separates each primer. To claim factory sealed primers in their boxes will just up and detonate is absolute hogwash.

Ask Federal why they changed their packs some years ago. Nothing will "just up and detonate," not even gasoline. Something has to initiate the chain...say an auto accident. There was an incident at Sierra Army Depot back in the seventies. Three BLU-82 bombs detonated while sitting in an above ground igloo. No was within a mile or more, as I recall. Obviously, something happened, but last I knew there were only suppositions. Shipping, handling and storage regulations are based on potential risks.

Completely false. No packaging is exempt from hazmat fees. If you ship primers you must pay a hazmat fee. There are no exceptions.

My apologies as I wasn't clear. What I intend to state was Federal redesigned the packaging to (help) prevent sympathetic detonation. I should have read Helg's post a little more carefully. You are correct; no amount of packing changes the classification of primers. However, there are explosives that are considered less dangerous (probably not the best word) if packed properly.
 
OK, then it is the task not for technicians, but for lawyers. Primed brass is not hazmat, right? I would design a cartridge, something like 25ACP in diameter, but with shorter shell to make the box of a 1000 smaller, and name the product "primed shells" instead of "primers".
In theory, you could probably do that, but I'm certain the cost would exceed HAZMAT fees. Plus, you would have to deprime the "cases."
 
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