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Urban settings: M14, M1 underappreciated?

Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by mshootnit, Mar 31, 2020.

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  1. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    I have been thinking back to something a relative told me about the M1 Garand in WWII recently.
    For urban fighting the TV programs all say troops want shorter, compact rifles to clear rooms because they make it easier to "slice the pie". However these shorter rifles or even the SMG's lack penetration and knock down power. Especially if body armor (plates) are encountered. So a user would effectively "slice the pie" only to have a prolonged exposure while multiple rounds are fired to try and neutralize the threat.

    One thing we were told by a WWII vet in our family was one reason they liked the M1 was that if the enemy were lined up right, you could drop 2-3 with one shot. It would penetrate through 2-3 soldiers.

    That is where I think modern thinking needs reset. Would you rather turn the corner with the confident ability neutralize someone with a single shot, or with a carbine you know is going to take 2-4 shots? If you turned the corner on three guys stacked up, wouldn't it be nice to just pull the trigger once and drop all three?
    I think our relative and others must have experienced this....
     
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  2. Texas10mm

    Texas10mm Member

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    Knock down power is a myth.

    I'd prefer to NOT have something with excessive penetration.
     
  3. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    I think all potential conclusion drawn from the premise that anyone in a combat situation would wait for the enemy to line up so that 2-3 could be hit with the same round is not only astoundingly suspect, but worthy only of being repeated to elicit guffaws over beers.

    Todd.
     
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  4. HB

    HB Member

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    They just call in a helicopter or level the building now.
     
  5. Merle1

    Merle1 Member

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    personally I would be reluctant to turn loose a .308 or a 30-06 in a friendly neighborhood.....
     
  6. jmr40

    jmr40 Member

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    No reason for soldiers to carry rifles suitable for hunting 1200 lb moose. It's been 50 years and people still want to complain about the 5.56 round being underpowered. Maybe the pendulum swung a little too far toward the light side with the 223, but I can promise you we'd have filled more body bags over the last 50 years if we'd stayed with the 308 or 30-06. Rather than hoping 2-3 guys lined up just right and taking them out with 1 round ( I'm sure it is possible), I'd rather have more ammo in a controllable to shoot package.

    People want to talk about instances where the 223 didn't stop someone fast enough. They don't want to discuss the soldiers in WW-2 that died or surrendered because they ran out of ammo. The M1 was revolutionary for it's time, but it's time is over. The M14 was a failed experiment.
     
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  7. Dave DeLaurant

    Dave DeLaurant Member

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    I understood that WWII SOP for room clearing was to start with a grenade.
     
  8. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    Who said anything about waiting?
     
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  9. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    Right, we are not talking about friendly neighborhoods.
     
  10. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    Sounds good to me. But remember knockdown power is a myth
     
  11. Alaskan Ironworker

    Alaskan Ironworker Member

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    My grandfather was on Iwo Jima and carried a Thompson and loved everything about it. Unfortunately I never got to meet him, my uncle told me he said: “you dont use the doorknob, just shoot the door down!”
     
  12. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    There is another scene in the movie 1917 where two guys face opposite ways to clear a trench with their 303's. Wouldn't want to have to work the bolt but you shoot center of mass with that 303, I think the trench scene clears starts to clear out pretty quick.
     
  13. Casefull

    Casefull Member

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    Knockdown power is a myth because a lot of the bullet energy Is expended after it goes through the subject. Hang up a large chunk of beef or deer or elk. Shoot a pistol round through it. Then shoot with a 556 round. Then shoot it with a 308 or 06. The 30 caliber round will leave a fist sized hole. The other two not so much. Get hit in the arm bone or leg bone with a 308 and most of the time your arm or leg is gone. Again not so much the other rounds.
     
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  14. FL-NC

    FL-NC Member

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    Urban combat/CQC is very complex. As far as 5.56 goes, like any other round, placement is key. The smaller and lighter your weapon is, the better for the soldier. We always found ourselves toting "100 pounds of lightweight gear" The M4 carbine and similar weapons are an excellent all-purpose weapon for most applications, and they really shine in urban terrain. And unless I "dome" a combatant, he or she will always have multiple holes in the body- regardless of what weapon/caliber I happen to be carrying.
     
  15. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    Using a cartridge designed for shooting at 800 at bad breath distances has disadvantages: recoil reduces the speed of follow up shots, the rifle is bigger and heavier than necessary, and you can’t carry as much ammo (both in each magazine and total round count) as a lighter weapon.

    I find it telling that the IDF expects to fight a lot in other people’s houses and from vehicles chose the short barreled Tavor as their main rifle.

    BSW
     
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  16. Leadbutt

    Leadbutt Member

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    I carried and use SMG's in the RVN, like them and had no trouble putting people in their place, but with that said the stuff the young guys are doing now a days, I see no better tool then a CAR-15 or M4 style short rifle
     
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  17. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    All good points
     
  18. mshootnit

    mshootnit Member

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    Right, and I don't think of 30-06 as knock down so much as I think of it as "goes through him, his buddy, and the guy that just showed up with a 30 cal. and steadily increasing sized hole."
     
  19. Scooter22

    Scooter22 Member

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    Take a Garand or M14 in a typical house or apartment and walk through it trying to swing it around corners. No thank you. I want something shorter and lighter. 5.56 or 7.62x39 is plenty.
     
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  20. 25-5
    • Contributing Member

    25-5 Contributing Member

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    I do like the Enfield, M1, and M14 for 100 yd + trouble, and for keeping troublesome folks "off my lawn".
    In house 870 and 1911.
     
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  21. LoonWulf
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    LoonWulf Contributing Member

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    out of curiosity, will a 27-2800fps .30 punch thru any common body armor a 556 will not?
     
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  22. ApacheCoTodd

    ApacheCoTodd Member

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    Waiting (as can be surely inferred) or not, the premise is idiotic at best and as stated, should lead to suspicion as to the source or the source's memory and then, dismissal of the conclusions.

    Todd.
     
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  23. briansmithwins

    briansmithwins Member

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    I think it’d come down to bullet construction. I’d expect AP bullets to punch thru most body armor from either caliber. Gilding metal and lead I suspect .223 might have more penetration because of higher velocity and smaller area of the armor to defeat.

    BSW
     
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  24. mustanger98

    mustanger98 Member

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    I didn't read anything about "waiting for the enemy to line up". I did see the possibility of taking out multiples. Somebody else said they didn't want over-penetration... that assumes hostages rather than multiple enemy combatants.
     
  25. Corpral_Agarn

    Corpral_Agarn Member

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    some of the 'special threat' plates that are becoming popular do not list 7.62x51 in the threat profile.
     
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