Discussion in 'Rifle Country' started by mshootnit, Mar 31, 2020.
I can't tell if the OP is talking about actual combat environments or domestic civilian (or LE) use.
If I round a corner and see three hostiles in a wartime context I'm firing a lot more than one shot no matter what I have
I can't imagine the deafening sound of firing a Garand indoors without ear protection.
Probably the reason my father always had the Zenith cranked all the way up when I was a kid.
For those who want 7.62x51 horsepower the SOCOM-16 and SCOUT (sans the factory brake,too long) offer very different handling characteristics than the full sized 22" model. Mini Garands offer the same but you need a competent builder to put one together like Shuff's. The M14/M1a gas system is pretty soft shooting compared to the FAL,G3 and the like. I have been running a SOCOM-16 and like it a lot, better for the field/street than the 22" traditional model.
Try doing a MOUT in a MOPP suit. you’ll want the lighter weapon...
I have done room clearing in a hostile environment with a carbine (M4) and a rifle (M16). The differences are night and day. WWII was a different fight altogether.
I’ve cleared houses with an M4, M16 and M21 (accurized M14) and the M4 is the best option for that job, period. It’s not even debatable to be honest. Long, heavy, harder recoiling rifles are less suited to clearing rooms and maneuvering in close quarters.
But, but, but .30 cal always > 5.56!
People don’t seam to realize that 556 with good expanding bullets kills people dead fast. Using a bigger bullet doesn’t necessarily kill faster but the added recoil and slower follow up shots give them more time to shoot you.
I've owned and shot a Garand but will take the 5.56 AR with a modern 75 Gold Dot load. More accurate, easier to add accessories- including optics and a light, way higher capacity, much lighter weight for carry, and I'll take the other's word on room clearing/urban scenarios.
Very likely not. Not even close. The vast majority of rounds fired do not connect with anybody and heavier recoil from longer heavier rifles would not have improved the hit ratio while greatly reducing shots fired.
** edit - I misread your post to mean bad guy counts. I agree we would have experienced much higher US losses using the old arms.
I think that is what he was saying. You run out of ammo faster with the big guns, which puts our servicemen in harms way, thereby filling US body bags.
I agree. I think I misread originally what he was saying.
I honestly feel the only valid input comes from the men who actually have been in this situation.
We have heard from some members that did this stuff for real.
I will take their words as gospel.
My dad served in France and Germany, and he used the M1 Garand (amongst others...he was weapons Sargent in an armored cavalry unit). He always loaded with AP...said everybody did. Didn’t say anything about three guys in a row, but he did say the 30’06 AP would go through a tree and the guy behind it. He also said it would take apart a brick wall. He was pretty pleased with it in the hedgerow country at Falaise, but he really liked the 37mm canister round from the M8 armored car he crewed.
Compared to the bolt action guns that were standard the Garand was great, in WWII. The writing was on the wall with the Stg44 and the rifles it influenced, like the AK.
Meanwhile the USA developed a decent target rifle with the product improved Garand, the M14, and shoved the replacement for .30-06, 7.62NATO down NATO’s throat.
The M14 of course, would go on to become the rifle with the shortest time in service (as a 1st line rifle) since the Krag.
I posed a question similar to this topic while talking with some Vietnam vets who also did this stuff for real. They said that to form an opinion of which is the better rifle, you have to have used both the AR15/M-16 and the M-14. Those particular men favored the M-14 for general combat, but some favored a shorter lighter weapon for CQB and indoor clearing. If you run a M-14 for most purposes, but then have to clear a room, you run what you brung. They also told me the Vietnam era M-16 of their experience was a great match rifle, but wasn't ready for battlefield use.
Id rather have an M4 in that situation also, and if they are more than 40 meters from me, make it a 203. Check your premise, it is faulty. I agree with FL-NC, he's been there-I just trained for it.
That I have done-and you are right.
Now the down side of the .223, you won't break the tread link on a German tank that's coming down the street.
So after reading this whole thread, it seems the logical answer is the AK-47
If the boys are doing house to house room clearing, it isn't a friendly neighborhood.
My father in law went to VN twice. First in '65 with an M14, then in '68 with the M16. Couple years back, he said he always felt safe (I think that's a relative term given the situation) with an M14. He liked that the M16 was lighter, but he didn't trust it and preferred the 30 cal (and arguably more reliable-at least in the 60s) M14.
I wish the M1As weren't so expensive, I'd buy him one.
Still, my castle wall gun, after 55 years of experimentation turns out to be this , now ready to go with a stack of the rare 30 round mags off the bipod as the thing is too heavy to carry. I deer fenced (8 foot) my property a few years ago
3000 rounds of German Ball and other interesting loads. And a quick attach day use scope mount too ! Yes I use little 5.56 guns passed out to family and one around my neck all ways, my "necktie" they will have to pry out my cold dead hands.
I know some of the earlier plates in GWOT would get penetrated by 7.62 x 54 in tests. The Ranger Body Armor (RBA) we used in the early 90's would fail with 30-06 ball; this test was done just prior to the invasion of Haiti, where Garands were very common. Fortunately, no one was actually hit by one there. The only casualties inflicted on SOF personnel that I know of by small arms were 2 separate incidents with 38 revolvers.
I haven't "been there and done that". If I had to do so I would think something reasonably lightweight, short so as to be quick to maneuver, and holds a LOT of ammo would be the ticket for house cleaning duties. A long, heavy, holds only a small amount of ammo with serious recoil would be less than ideal for the same job.
With that said I'm going away as I don't see me ever clearing a house. Defending one, not much chance, clearing one, no chance
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