Urgent warning: BATFE is on a rampage nationwide - READ!
- Thread starter Jim March
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Hkmp5sd
Member
Just because a dealer sells Jennings and other lower-end guns and happens to live in an area where some of his sales wind up being used by criminals, doesn't automatically make him a bad dealer.
Like Wildalaska said, the actual laws governing the actions of a common 01 dealer aren't all that complicated. Just keep your paperwork accurate and up to date and don't worry about it.
Most dealers that get bit by the ATF are the ones that bend the rules to make a sale, whether for the money, just to help someone out and in some cases that I recall, just to get the guy out of his store.
Just follow the rules and don't take any shortcuts.
What if you aren't in business and just want to sell a gun? Nothing in this thread gives me the impression FFLs are the only ones being targeted.
Maybe you were hoping for new federal legislation to mandate all sales through FFLs just so some guy doesn't get busted by ATF for doing something in contravention to the law? You'd actually be doing him a favor, eh?
sm
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WildAlaska...
1) You decide to up the capacity of your sporterized Mauser. You take a cheap 20-round HK-91 mag and do some cutting and welding to end up with a permanently-affixed 10-round mag on your Mauser. Are you a criminal?
2) Same as above, but you hire a machinist to make you a new floorplate which will allows you to use removeable 20-round HK mags. Are you a criminal? Is the gunsmith a criminal?
3) You bought a traditional wood-stocked Ruger Mini-14 in 1988. You decide to put a pistol grip and folding stock on it in 2003. Are you a criminal?
4) You buy a C96 Mauser pistol in 7.63 Mauser at a gun show. You decide to buy a wooden should stock for it and shoot the weapon with it attached. Are you a criminal?
5) You find a box of steel-cored 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo in your basement. You decide to shoot it up in your CZ-52. Are you a criminal? If so, at what point?
6) You buy a completely unmarked 30-round AR mag at a gunshow. Are you a criminal? If accused of a crime for this, what defense do you offer?
7) You buy five Yugo SKSs in an effort to get one really good one. After choosing the best, you resell the remaining four for $10 each more than you paid for them. Are you a criminal? What if you sell them for $100 more than you paid?
8) You decide to do some gunsmithing on the side. A customer asks you to shorten a shotgun, and you cut the barrel down to 18.25 inches. Unbeknownst to you, the customer is an AFT agent. He cuts the barrel down another 1/2 inch and says you did it. Are you a criminal?
Any idea what the right answers are? Personally, I think that every one of them is disgusting, because it is requires serious legal study to figure out if they involve breaking the law. Why on earth should people be subjected to laws so far removed from issues of right and wrong that they have no idea if they are breaking the law or not?
Like Ayn Rand said, the point of administrative law is to make everyone guilty of something to give the government leverage.
So, by your standards, should you be in the business of owning guns? Do you know what's legal to do with your own gun as a non-FFL and what isn't? Here are a couple situations for starters.
1) You decide to up the capacity of your sporterized Mauser. You take a cheap 20-round HK-91 mag and do some cutting and welding to end up with a permanently-affixed 10-round mag on your Mauser. Are you a criminal?
2) Same as above, but you hire a machinist to make you a new floorplate which will allows you to use removeable 20-round HK mags. Are you a criminal? Is the gunsmith a criminal?
3) You bought a traditional wood-stocked Ruger Mini-14 in 1988. You decide to put a pistol grip and folding stock on it in 2003. Are you a criminal?
4) You buy a C96 Mauser pistol in 7.63 Mauser at a gun show. You decide to buy a wooden should stock for it and shoot the weapon with it attached. Are you a criminal?
5) You find a box of steel-cored 7.62x25 Tokarev ammo in your basement. You decide to shoot it up in your CZ-52. Are you a criminal? If so, at what point?
6) You buy a completely unmarked 30-round AR mag at a gunshow. Are you a criminal? If accused of a crime for this, what defense do you offer?
7) You buy five Yugo SKSs in an effort to get one really good one. After choosing the best, you resell the remaining four for $10 each more than you paid for them. Are you a criminal? What if you sell them for $100 more than you paid?
8) You decide to do some gunsmithing on the side. A customer asks you to shorten a shotgun, and you cut the barrel down to 18.25 inches. Unbeknownst to you, the customer is an AFT agent. He cuts the barrel down another 1/2 inch and says you did it. Are you a criminal?
Any idea what the right answers are? Personally, I think that every one of them is disgusting, because it is requires serious legal study to figure out if they involve breaking the law. Why on earth should people be subjected to laws so far removed from issues of right and wrong that they have no idea if they are breaking the law or not?
Like Ayn Rand said, the point of administrative law is to make everyone guilty of something to give the government leverage.
Hkmp5sd
Member
01. No.
02. No. No.
03. Yes.
04. Yes.
05. No.
06. No. 922(w)(4) "The lack of a serial number as described in section 923(i) of this title shall be a presumption that the large capacity ammunition feeding device is not subject to the prohibition of possession in paragraph (1)."
07. No. No.
08. No.
02. No. No.
03. Yes.
04. Yes.
05. No.
06. No. 922(w)(4) "The lack of a serial number as described in section 923(i) of this title shall be a presumption that the large capacity ammunition feeding device is not subject to the prohibition of possession in paragraph (1)."
07. No. No.
08. No.
Wildalaska
member
Darn HK, ya beat me to it...
Im gonna add that I have yet to meet a Fed Agent who wasnt entirely honorable, that includes my years as a criminal defense attorney handling drug and gun crimes as well as the gun business.
WildbadapplesineverybunchthoughAlaska
PS
"It's time to take AMERIKA BACK"
You spelled America wrong
"No gun law is a legal law per the constitution."
O gawd, not another one:banghead: ....Guess your knowledge of the law equals your spelling
Im gonna add that I have yet to meet a Fed Agent who wasnt entirely honorable, that includes my years as a criminal defense attorney handling drug and gun crimes as well as the gun business.
WildbadapplesineverybunchthoughAlaska
PS
"It's time to take AMERIKA BACK"
You spelled America wrong
"No gun law is a legal law per the constitution."
O gawd, not another one:banghead: ....Guess your knowledge of the law equals your spelling
Well, here's the legal interpretation I've been given:
1) Yes. Even though the end result is not high-cap, it is modification of a pre-ban mag such that it no longer functions in its original gun, but is not destroyed. According to my gunsmith, anyway.
2) Maybe. If you have a manufacturer's license then you can; otherwise you cannot. This is a pretty recent change in BATF regs (not the actual law, just their rules).
3) Yes. Wasn't an assault weapon then, so it can't be now despite being preban.
4) No. The C96 and Luger are exempted from the SBR category when using original stocks as a helpful loophole for their C&R status.
5) No. Can't be imported or manufactured, but can be possessed.
6) No.
7) Maybe. If you make enough profit to get the attention of an ATF agent, you could be prosectued for dealing without an FFL. Vague wording of the law and all that.
8) Maybe. If its your word vs theirs, you're out of luck. Better take some photos...
The mere fact that there can be contention about the legality of these hypotheticals is enough to show that there is a very serious problem.
1) Yes. Even though the end result is not high-cap, it is modification of a pre-ban mag such that it no longer functions in its original gun, but is not destroyed. According to my gunsmith, anyway.
2) Maybe. If you have a manufacturer's license then you can; otherwise you cannot. This is a pretty recent change in BATF regs (not the actual law, just their rules).
3) Yes. Wasn't an assault weapon then, so it can't be now despite being preban.
4) No. The C96 and Luger are exempted from the SBR category when using original stocks as a helpful loophole for their C&R status.
5) No. Can't be imported or manufactured, but can be possessed.
6) No.
7) Maybe. If you make enough profit to get the attention of an ATF agent, you could be prosectued for dealing without an FFL. Vague wording of the law and all that.
8) Maybe. If its your word vs theirs, you're out of luck. Better take some photos...
The mere fact that there can be contention about the legality of these hypotheticals is enough to show that there is a very serious problem.
No gun law is in accord with the philosophy of the Founders who fought in our revolution. They are all legally consistant with the Constitution, though. Thanks to the Supreme Court choosing a broad interpretation (and their words being law), the government can virtually do anything it pleases with impunity.
pytron
Member
Wow. While I have no idea about the answers for any of these questions, it sure points out the absurdity of the laws. Interesting to see the different answers to these questions.
It is unreasonable to think that the average citizen would be able to know the answer to these questions, given the complex laws we have on the books. Granted, with a couple hundred dollars worth of lawyer time you could probably figure them out.
Should we hold a dealer to a higher standard? Of course. Does that me that they (the dealers) should have everything memorized? If they have a question, should they call the ATF and invite scrutiny? Should they hire a lawyer at $100/hour to figure out what is legal? Should they just limit sales to those with no question at all (law enforcement contacts?)? Or should they take their best guess and spend the next 5 to 10 behind bars for ignorance of what the current policy is.
Just some questions to ponder.
-Pytron
It is unreasonable to think that the average citizen would be able to know the answer to these questions, given the complex laws we have on the books. Granted, with a couple hundred dollars worth of lawyer time you could probably figure them out.
Should we hold a dealer to a higher standard? Of course. Does that me that they (the dealers) should have everything memorized? If they have a question, should they call the ATF and invite scrutiny? Should they hire a lawyer at $100/hour to figure out what is legal? Should they just limit sales to those with no question at all (law enforcement contacts?)? Or should they take their best guess and spend the next 5 to 10 behind bars for ignorance of what the current policy is.
Just some questions to ponder.
-Pytron
Hkmp5sd
Member
01. Your gunsmith is incorrect. A preban magazine is not considered a "large capacity ammunition feeding device". If you modify the magazine and it no longer functions in it's original gun AND can hold over 10 rounds, it becomes a postban large capacity ammunition feeding device.
http://www.titleii.com/Bardwell/atf_letter85.txt
08. Have the individual bring to you only the shotgun barrel. Shorten the barrel and return to the owner. It is only illegal if you have both the <18" barrel and the receiver in your possession. Even if the undercover agent shortens the barrel, you never had the entire gun in your possession.
Of course, if he's gonna lie about the length, he could just as easily lie about you having the entire SBS.
http://www.titleii.com/Bardwell/atf_letter85.txt
08. Have the individual bring to you only the shotgun barrel. Shorten the barrel and return to the owner. It is only illegal if you have both the <18" barrel and the receiver in your possession. Even if the undercover agent shortens the barrel, you never had the entire gun in your possession.
Of course, if he's gonna lie about the length, he could just as easily lie about you having the entire SBS.
benEzra
Moderator Emeritus
I noticed at the last gun show I was at, they were selling Butler Creek folding stocks for the mini-14, pinned in the open position (and some unpinned). Until the AWB sunsets, I would not feel safe owning one, because it would be too easy to be falsely accused.
SodaPop
member
Anyone see Hannity and Colmes last night? Sean Hannity mentioned something about this last night.
I'm paraphrasing but I could have sworn I heard him say that "The BATF was going to start busting people just so they could legitamize the ban."
I'm paraphrasing but I could have sworn I heard him say that "The BATF was going to start busting people just so they could legitamize the ban."
Kaylee
Member
jeez... when even a simple, friendly "watch your six" warning gets turned into a privates-measuring spat... NO WONDER WE'RE IN TROUBLE.
Thanks Jim. Much appreciated.
Any way to get this news mainstreamed?
-K
Thanks Jim. Much appreciated.
Any way to get this news mainstreamed?
-K
Leatherneck
Member
Kaylee,
Thank you for veering us back to The High Road. I too was wondering why Hannity or Rush or some mainstream conservative voice hadn't picked up on this. Not doubting your tip. Alaska--just wondering where the usual sniffers have gone.
TC
TFL Survivor
Thank you for veering us back to The High Road. I too was wondering why Hannity or Rush or some mainstream conservative voice hadn't picked up on this. Not doubting your tip. Alaska--just wondering where the usual sniffers have gone.
TC
TFL Survivor
Sir Galahad
member
Are we talking about the same BATFE who was going around inspecting purchases of black powder by re-enactors and muzzleloaders for possible "terrorist activity"?
"Well, they ALL have beards, sooo....."
"Well, they ALL have beards, sooo....."
Double Naught Spy
Sus Venator
The term "rampage" seems way over sensationalized here. Since when is it a rampage when a law enforcement agency is simply doing the job they are supposed to do?
Sir Galahad
member
Color me jumping off the deep end, but by that logic, it can be argued that the SS and Gestapo was just doing their jobs and never went on any rampage. Hmmm....seems they said that, too, at the Nuremburg Trials, but they were still hanged.
Jim March
Member
Double Naught Spy: the information I have is that as reorganized under Ashcroft and the DOJ, the BATFE people are now forced to justify their jobs. As a result, they need arrests NOW. They do not care if the busts stick two years down the line. They're in "immediate panic mode".
So no, we're NOT talking about "just doing their jobs" sorts of things.
One example I was given was a guy properly and permanently converting old military rifle recievers to semi-auto, doing all the paperwork correctly, and getting arrested on charges of illegal full-auto sales. It won't stick, but meanwhile he's hassled to the max and they're hunting his customers.
Follow? Anything that looks even slightly fishy, or anything they can *frame* you on, they're gonna strike. It's that or the unemployment line.
You think there aren't a high number of BATFE agents who won't frame you to save their jobs?
So no, we're NOT talking about "just doing their jobs" sorts of things.
One example I was given was a guy properly and permanently converting old military rifle recievers to semi-auto, doing all the paperwork correctly, and getting arrested on charges of illegal full-auto sales. It won't stick, but meanwhile he's hassled to the max and they're hunting his customers.
Follow? Anything that looks even slightly fishy, or anything they can *frame* you on, they're gonna strike. It's that or the unemployment line.
You think there aren't a high number of BATFE agents who won't frame you to save their jobs?
12-34hom
Member
Jim March, no i would not.
I've had one of my pistols for sale on a large selling service via the internet.
I've had several offers, but once i informed the potential buyers, that all laws must be followed to the letter regarding the sale of this weapon, all have vanished.
I even had one guy suggest [over the phone] that i did not need to ship to a FFL holder or dealer... i laughed and asked him if he wasa federal agent trying to entrap me..
Needless to say, i never heard from him again.
Makes one wonder though... damm spooky.
12-34hom.
I've had one of my pistols for sale on a large selling service via the internet.
I've had several offers, but once i informed the potential buyers, that all laws must be followed to the letter regarding the sale of this weapon, all have vanished.
I even had one guy suggest [over the phone] that i did not need to ship to a FFL holder or dealer... i laughed and asked him if he wasa federal agent trying to entrap me..
Needless to say, i never heard from him again.
Makes one wonder though... damm spooky.
12-34hom.
Sir Galahad
member
When a civilian files a phony police report, he is arrested. When police file a phony police report, their union protects them. There need to be standards. And cops caught trampling rights, entrapping, and filing phony charges need to start doing jail time. Honest cops need to step up to the plate and not let these bad apples spoil the barrel and quit covering for those jackboots.
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