rock jock
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He didn't say they weren't entitled to any rights.
US Army monitoring civilians ..... again!
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Cool Hand Luke 22:36
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Aliens shouldn't have the same rights as citizens since they don't have the same responsibilities.
Different treatment for aliens is natural and justifiable. Let them go home if they don't like it.
Code:
But congress has never declared war.No, they did not declare war-Congress handed the President a blank check with which to prosecute the war. That way, they could puff out their chests if it went right, or condemn the President if it went against public opinion. For background information and precedent-see Gulf of Tonkin resolution. Lots of backbone in Congress, don'cha know!
The sitting Presidents have involved America in more undeclared wars than you may know. A lot more.......
Although the War Powers Act passed in the 1970's limited the President's ability to keep troops on the ground past 90 days without advise and consent from the congress, every President has had the power to initiate war, starting with George Washington, before advising congress.
When the constitution was written, Congress was given the power to declare war, and the President was given the power to prosecute and command it as Commander in Chief.
Funny story about Washington the President-he once went to the Senate to gather advise and consent as to a particular treaty. Apparently, there was a whole lot of gum-flapping and not much was getting done, to the point where the President stormed out of the conference, muttering that he would be damned if he ever went to the congress before acting on his authority. Thus, the President has never been required to go to the congress prior to committing troops.
Gee, what do you suppose Gen. George would do if he had to talk to the likes of Teddy Kennedy? WWF would have some serious competition, me thinks
President Washington virtually set every precedent for every future commander in chief this country has ever elected. He's a good read-too bad they don't teach the depth of the man these days.
Sam
Member
Pretty inept work by the Intel tyopes on this in any case. Any idiot in Intel stupid enough to ask instead of just scamming a copy of the attendee list ain't bright enough to have the job.
Any bright 14 year old could have got a list if he wanted it without asking anyone and without breaking any laws.
Sam
Any bright 14 year old could have got a list if he wanted it without asking anyone and without breaking any laws.
Sam
Ezekiel
Member
You mean, like Christianity?
You've got to love Manifest Destiny, history, and our own self-righteousness! Now, if I could only locate some innocent Japanese to "detain"...
I can't help it, I'm just SO not surprised that this "went down" involving the US Army.
Sean Smith
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As somebody who actually was an Army CI officer (MOS 35E), here is my $0.02...
If the described incident actually happened as stated, it is unambiguously illegal. And incredibly stupid.
Army CI Special Agents have a very narrow jurisdiction. This incident isn't even a gray area, it is a moron area. With the exception of investigating service members, and maybe some narrow exceptions I forget, domestic CI is entirely owned by the FBI. Hell, Army CI's scope for operating on overseas deployments in hostile 3rd world hell holes is pretty limited.
This is so basic that I can't believe that the lawyers AND the CI folks could be so completely idiotic as to even get near this thing. And of course, since this incident is public, they poisoned any opportunity for the FBI to do a real investigation now. Morons.
If the described incident actually happened as stated, it is unambiguously illegal. And incredibly stupid.
Army CI Special Agents have a very narrow jurisdiction. This incident isn't even a gray area, it is a moron area. With the exception of investigating service members, and maybe some narrow exceptions I forget, domestic CI is entirely owned by the FBI. Hell, Army CI's scope for operating on overseas deployments in hostile 3rd world hell holes is pretty limited.
This is so basic that I can't believe that the lawyers AND the CI folks could be so completely idiotic as to even get near this thing. And of course, since this incident is public, they poisoned any opportunity for the FBI to do a real investigation now. Morons.
itgoesboom
member
C_Yeager said:
I think that deserves being repeated.
I.G.B.
I think that deserves being repeated.
I.G.B.
Oh, please tell.
Please do let me know what responsibilities I don't have. I'm hoping I don't have to pay taxes but I'll settle for not having to obey the speed limit.
Ironically, your sentiment fits in better with many foreign countries laws than with the Constitution of the USA.
Cheers,
Mike.
Please do let me know what responsibilities I don't have. I'm hoping I don't have to pay taxes but I'll settle for not having to obey the speed limit.
Ironically, your sentiment fits in better with many foreign countries laws than with the Constitution of the USA.
Cheers,
Mike.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
Registered for the draft and to vote are you?
No? I guess you were too busy serving on jury duty.
You're not even required to say the pledge of allegience.
http://www.sss.gov/FSaliens.htm
It suprises a lot of people that resident aliens have the same problems that we do, while enjoying all the pleasures of being deportable or having a vacation at guatanamo.
Yep aliens have to register for selective service just like everyone else, and they get called to juries too, with the same obligation to appear.
They don't get to vote though. It would really suck to get drafted and have to serve and still not even be allowed to vote for your CIC.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
Not in all cases. Many don't have to register, as the link I provided indicates.
No they don't, this is incorrect. Every jurisdiction I know of excuses them upon a showing of their alien registration card.
Resident aliens may be called, and have an obligation to appear, but they cannot serve on a jury.
California for just one example:
""A. Pursuant to Code of Civil Procedure, 203, all persons are eligible and qualified to be prospective trial jurors, except the following:
1. Persons who are not citizens of the United States;""
http://www.cc-courts.org/jury.htm
Strange, since the first sentance of your link reads thus;
SOME resident aliens, and in fact some citzens are excluded from military service for a wide variety of reasons. The only real catchall that applies to aliens is that they must have been in this country for a full year prior to service. A lot of natural born Americans arent qualified for military service either, and they still have to register as well.
You may be right about jury duty though. I don't really know how being excempt from jury duty somehow nullifies all the other rights enumerated in the constitution but what the heck.
auschip
Member
Did you read the link you provided at all?
"U.S. non-citizens and dual nationals are required by law to register with the Selective Service System.* Most are also liable for induction into the U.S. Armed Forces if there is a draft. They would also be eligible for any deferments, postponements, and exemptions available to all other registrants."
It goes on to say "During a draft, any claims for exemptions based on any of the above categories would be granted or denied by a man's Local Board."
Thus, they would need to register with Selective Service and would need to make any exemption claims at their local board.
That's it?
Wow, talk about a free ride!
I can't vote (that's a right that you enjoy, not a responsibility by the way).
I *do* have to register for selective service (assuming I am not yet 26) - "Federal law requires that men who are at least 18 years old, but not yet 26 years old, must be registered with Selective Service. This includes all male non-citizens within these age limits who permanently reside in the United States. Men with "green cards" (lawful permanent residents) must register. " per USCIS http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/faq.htm#q27
And apparently I'm not *required* to say the pledge. Well, guess what, just as I chose to come to the US, I choose to say the pledge. Plus I stand and sing the national anthem as well. (to become a citizen I am required to state the Oath of Allegiance of course). Question - are *you* really *required* to say the pledge - what happens to you if you refuse to say it? I see plenty of surly teens who don't say the pledge or stand for the anthem.
News Flash: Legal Aliens get pretty much the same stuff as citizens except for voting and the fact that we can be deported if we commit a crime. Also my wife had to sign a petition of support meaning that she must support me because the US government will *not* pay me benifits that I might ordinarily be elligible for due to my immigrant status (I still get to pay taxes & SS though - indeed I'm in trouble if I don't).
For a list of the responsibilities of resident aliens see http://uscis.gov/graphics/citizenship/rights.htm#Your Rights and Responsibilities
Do you fill out a form if you are leaving the country for 12 months?
Note - I don't disagree with any of the restrictions or requirements placed on me, I am after all an imigrant. But, I do think that one of the greatest strengths of this nation is it's constitution which grants rights to all of us here based on our being human. If we have to round up the dang furriners in an effort to feel safer then I think this country becomes a little less like America. One of things that makes me want to puke in my home country is hearing people shout "Asians go home" as if that would solve the woes of that country.
One more thing then I'll get off the box
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
I find it telling that the Constitution recognizes that the ultimate responsibility (that is to alter or abolish new government) rests upon the same "The People" as have the other rights. I like to think I am one of The People. After all, I have the right to keep and bear arms.
No offense taken by me, none is meant by this post.
Thanks & Cheers,
Mike.
Australian by birth,
American by choice,
Texan by the grace of God!
Wow, talk about a free ride!
I can't vote (that's a right that you enjoy, not a responsibility by the way).
I *do* have to register for selective service (assuming I am not yet 26) - "Federal law requires that men who are at least 18 years old, but not yet 26 years old, must be registered with Selective Service. This includes all male non-citizens within these age limits who permanently reside in the United States. Men with "green cards" (lawful permanent residents) must register. " per USCIS http://uscis.gov/graphics/services/natz/faq.htm#q27
And apparently I'm not *required* to say the pledge. Well, guess what, just as I chose to come to the US, I choose to say the pledge. Plus I stand and sing the national anthem as well. (to become a citizen I am required to state the Oath of Allegiance of course). Question - are *you* really *required* to say the pledge - what happens to you if you refuse to say it? I see plenty of surly teens who don't say the pledge or stand for the anthem.
News Flash: Legal Aliens get pretty much the same stuff as citizens except for voting and the fact that we can be deported if we commit a crime. Also my wife had to sign a petition of support meaning that she must support me because the US government will *not* pay me benifits that I might ordinarily be elligible for due to my immigrant status (I still get to pay taxes & SS though - indeed I'm in trouble if I don't).
For a list of the responsibilities of resident aliens see http://uscis.gov/graphics/citizenship/rights.htm#Your Rights and Responsibilities
Do you fill out a form if you are leaving the country for 12 months?
Note - I don't disagree with any of the restrictions or requirements placed on me, I am after all an imigrant. But, I do think that one of the greatest strengths of this nation is it's constitution which grants rights to all of us here based on our being human. If we have to round up the dang furriners in an effort to feel safer then I think this country becomes a little less like America. One of things that makes me want to puke in my home country is hearing people shout "Asians go home" as if that would solve the woes of that country.
One more thing then I'll get off the box
"We hold these truths to be self-evident, that all men are created equal, that they are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable Rights, that among these are Life, Liberty, and the pursuit of Happiness. That to secure these rights, Governments are instituted among Men, deriving their just powers from the consent of the governed. That whenever any Form of Government becomes destructive of these ends, it is the Right of the People to alter or to abolish it, and to institute new Government, laying its foundation on such principles and organizing its powers in such form, as to them shall seem most likely to effect their Safety and Happiness."
I find it telling that the Constitution recognizes that the ultimate responsibility (that is to alter or abolish new government) rests upon the same "The People" as have the other rights. I like to think I am one of The People. After all, I have the right to keep and bear arms.
No offense taken by me, none is meant by this post.
Thanks & Cheers,
Mike.
Australian by birth,
American by choice,
Texan by the grace of God!
Augustwest
Member
And it's worth repeating again...
Sean Smith
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Actually, the Constitution does NOT guarantee the same rights for non-citizens as it does for citizens. Close, but no cigar. Read the 14th Ammendment.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
Citizenship defined. Note that it excludes... visiting foreigners, for instance, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, etc.
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;"
And thus it logically follows that states CAN abridge the "priveliges or immunities" of non-citizens. So non-citizens do NOT, per the text of the Constitution, receive the same protections as citizens. Due process of the law is still always required to deprive anyone of life, liberty, or property, however, per the same ammendment.
"All persons born or naturalized in the United States, and subject to the jurisdiction thereof, are citizens of the United States and of the State wherein they reside."
Citizenship defined. Note that it excludes... visiting foreigners, for instance, to say nothing of illegal immigrants, etc.
"No State shall make or enforce any law which shall abridge the privileges or immunities of citizens of the United States;"
And thus it logically follows that states CAN abridge the "priveliges or immunities" of non-citizens. So non-citizens do NOT, per the text of the Constitution, receive the same protections as citizens. Due process of the law is still always required to deprive anyone of life, liberty, or property, however, per the same ammendment.
Bear Gulch
Member
Posse Comitatus didn't become law until 1876, which makes the Whiskey Rebellion a gimme.
I pose another view. Had a bomb gone off at UT wouldn't folks be clamoring to know why the army was watching these folks?
We are at war. We know that there are sleeper cells here. It is a legitimate MI function to look for them.
Hey if all the 19 911 hijackers were of Irish ancestry, I'd be willing to be looked at a little harder when I board a plane. But they weren't So maybe it is time for some Islamic groups to help instead of sitting on their hands and b****ing about how their rights are being trampled.
I pose another view. Had a bomb gone off at UT wouldn't folks be clamoring to know why the army was watching these folks?
We are at war. We know that there are sleeper cells here. It is a legitimate MI function to look for them.
Hey if all the 19 911 hijackers were of Irish ancestry, I'd be willing to be looked at a little harder when I board a plane. But they weren't So maybe it is time for some Islamic groups to help instead of sitting on their hands and b****ing about how their rights are being trampled.
RevDisk
Member
If a bomb had gone off at UT, I imagine most people would be asking why the Army screwed up and why the FBI wasn't handling the investigation. Domestic counterintelligence is an FBI function.
It is NOT a military function, MI or otherwise. The military can provide technical assistance. Trust me, you don't want the US military policing US citizens. Nor does the US military want to do so anyways.
Question. If Islamic groups WERE cooperating with the FBI with on-going investigations, would they be advertising this fact?
Reality, some groups are fully cooperating, most are doing nothing, and a very few are intentionally blocking investigations. I suppose the worst case of a group blocking investigation would be the White House interfering with investigations of Saudi Arabia. But that's not a politically correct thing to say these days.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
I think you made my point as to why aliens shouldn't have the same rights as citizens. You and many others haven't "been around" in America long enough to pick up on the Jeffersonian ideals of an informed electorate. If you had you'd realize that voting is a right that one has an obligation to undertake (that includes a refusal to vote if need be) and a responsibility to use wisely and in an informed manner.
And as the Constitution was originally written, excluding blacks, women, indians, and aliens. The part about aliens still makes sense.
Cool Hand Luke 22:36
member
Do you really think I would have posted it here on THR if I hadn't?
As I said, not ALL aliens are required to register: (from the website):
Yes, and how many of the rights enumerated by the constitution specifically state a requirement for citizenship? Only ONE, the right to vote. Clearly our founding fathers knew the difference between a citizen and a non-citizen and yet, they make no distinction between the two in the bill of rights. So, either they hideously screwed up and FORGOT to make that distinction, or those rights arent requisit upon citizenship.
DRZinn
Member
Your rights you have by virtue of being a human being, but there are many privileges you have only by being a citizen. Let's not confuse what is and isn't a right, and then we won't have to argue who does and doesn't have them.
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