Hobie
Member
New York Guard.palerider1 said:
US Army Raises Enlistment Age
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Lone_Gunman
Member
If you are 40 years old, and your best prospect is enlisting in the Army, you really should have tried a little harder.
palerider1
member
what is the new york guard? never heard of them. are they like the national guard?
palerider1
member
Lone_Gunman said:
what is that supposed to mean? i own my own business, i'm in the local fire dept too. just wanted to do a little more for my country. so please explain what your quote meant.
cowboybobb693
Member
Palerider.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that was not only a shot at you, but at the rest of us that have made either the Active Services or Reserve services a part of our lives.
I also believe that the person that made this statement should apoligize very quickly, lest he insult those of us that are in the Military and start a VERY NASTY flame war.
Get the polite hint (Lonegunman) Bubba????
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that was not only a shot at you, but at the rest of us that have made either the Active Services or Reserve services a part of our lives.
I also believe that the person that made this statement should apoligize very quickly, lest he insult those of us that are in the Military and start a VERY NASTY flame war.
Get the polite hint (Lonegunman) Bubba????
palerider1
member
cowboybobb693 said:Palerider.
Correct me if I'm wrong but I believe that was not only a shot at you, but at the rest of us that have made either the Active Services or Reserve services a part of our lives.
I also believe that the person that made this statement should apoligize very quickly, lest he insult those of us that are in the Military and start a VERY NASTY flame war.
Get the polite hint (Lonegunman) Bubba????
i agree,
i make a great living for my family and my venture in the new york guard certainly would not be monitary. i have supported my community and my country and just wanted to know more about the reserves. lonegunman i am not angry with you but please come out and explain yourself. if your an NRA life member then i'm sure you have the balls to explain what you said.
Lone_Gunman
Member
Yea I will explain. My comments were with respect to 40 yr olds enlisting in the active duty military. I am not talking about National Guard. If you want to join the Guard, thats a different issue entirely. But if for example, you own your own business, wouldn't it be a tad hard to enlist as a private, serve for a few years, and come back and still have your business in tact?
My point is, if you are 40 yrs of age and don't have a better prospect than joining the military as an E-1, what have you been doing all this time?
Its an entirely different prospect if you are enlisting at 18.
Its also entirely different if you are a 40 yr old bringing some particular skill to the Army, and therefor starting at a higher position.
So, do ya'll still want to flame me?
My point is, if you are 40 yrs of age and don't have a better prospect than joining the military as an E-1, what have you been doing all this time?
Its an entirely different prospect if you are enlisting at 18.
Its also entirely different if you are a 40 yr old bringing some particular skill to the Army, and therefor starting at a higher position.
So, do ya'll still want to flame me?
palerider1
member
mayby i want to join as an e-1. i'm financially secure and want to serve my country. i did not appreciate your comments, although i respect your right to make them. i certainly dont have a problem following orders, even if its from a 20 year old as long as he is qualified to give them.Lone_Gunman said:
Lone_Gunman
Member
Yea, its possible. How many 40 yr olds do you know with a house, family, job, etc are going to sign up for a tour in Iraq? I don't mean to be pessimistic, but do you really think they are going to get a lot more people by raising the age?
If someone is really so patriotic to do that, then go for it. It is an admirable thing. But if the government is hoping to keep their enlistment numbers by relying on the few people in the position to do that, I don't think it is going to work.
By age 40, most people have some skill that the Army would find usable, and potentially start them higher than E1. If someone really is 40 yrs old, and has developed no usable skill that would allow them to start higher than E1, then what has that person been doing? That is a clarification of my original statement.
Exposure
Member
Lone_Gunman said:
Not everyone enlists simply because of the "prospects" offered by military service, ass.
palerider1
member
Lone_Gunman said:
that is no clarification at all. read your posts. nobody but you said anything about E-1. i would serve under this country at 80 as a minus e-0....you attacked my post and i would appreciate an apology please, and an admission that you were wrong. if you are an NRA life member you should realize this and have the balls to do it, please.
people like myself and others are willing to put our "lives" on the line for what you pay "dues" to do. so suck it up and please admit that you made a mistake about what you said.I worked with a guy that was 39 in the Navy and couldnt make it past E3 took the exam the max number of times so they kicked him out. they pay him for it though. makes like 38k a year from Unlce Sam doing NOTHING. nice eh
edit* oh yeah back to my point. the military wants younger people so they can mold them. i dont know how many people ive worked with that joined the Service later on in life and are already how you would say "set" in there ways. they generally dont take orders that well espicaly from the younger guys that are higher rank lol.
if they do anything they should lower the age you can join. right now you can join at 17 now but you have to have a waiver from your parents saying you can go in. i dont see how raising the age limit is going to help unless they are recuriting a bunch of guys with degrees to be officers because chances are they are going to come in under E3 and an E3 makes about 24k a year. now i dont know but im pretty sure most people that are the age 35-40 have a job that proably nets them more than 24k a year. (benefits from the military is the only thing i could see.) granted they give you a 40k sign on bonus but they dont tell you how that works. you join but what they fail to tell you is that they only give you 20k up front then tax that 28% then every year after that you get a portion of the other 20k on the anniversary of your enlistment date.
but hey if you want to serve your country its your god given right to do so. there is alot of pride that comes out of it. and you also get alot of benefits being a active duty or a veteran.
(if you die in combat or a combat zone your family gets a year of not paying taxes.)
edit* oh yeah back to my point. the military wants younger people so they can mold them. i dont know how many people ive worked with that joined the Service later on in life and are already how you would say "set" in there ways. they generally dont take orders that well espicaly from the younger guys that are higher rank lol.
if they do anything they should lower the age you can join. right now you can join at 17 now but you have to have a waiver from your parents saying you can go in. i dont see how raising the age limit is going to help unless they are recuriting a bunch of guys with degrees to be officers because chances are they are going to come in under E3 and an E3 makes about 24k a year. now i dont know but im pretty sure most people that are the age 35-40 have a job that proably nets them more than 24k a year. (benefits from the military is the only thing i could see.) granted they give you a 40k sign on bonus but they dont tell you how that works. you join but what they fail to tell you is that they only give you 20k up front then tax that 28% then every year after that you get a portion of the other 20k on the anniversary of your enlistment date.
but hey if you want to serve your country its your god given right to do so. there is alot of pride that comes out of it. and you also get alot of benefits being a active duty or a veteran.
(if you die in combat or a combat zone your family gets a year of not paying taxes.)
palerider1
member
Lone_Gunman said:
will the lone gunman please explain this post,,,,,,,,,dont twist the truth or any other posts,,,,,,,,,,,,,just explain this statement,,,,,,,,,or appologize, please
you will be forgivenWorking Man
Member
Lone_Gunman said:
Thinking about some of the people I have worked with I can certainly see it
happening for a variety of reasons. I know a few guys divorced, no or grown
kids (off to collage anyway), and not exactly ecstatic about what they are
doing that want a change in their lives. Maybe for excitement, maybe for
escape, or maybe for a whole new path in life.
There is also some that had thought about serving, got married young, had
kids young and now feel free (money put away, wife has good job, kids
grown/older) to follow that little voice that's been nagging them all this time.
Change can be a very appealing thing... people who have been doing the
same thing for 15 to 20 years may want to spread their wings a little or start
over with a whole new life. Hell guys and gals in that age range are getting
laid off around me left and right too. This could be a whole new experience
for them or a return to something familiar.
At any rate I think there are definitely positive things about that age range
choosing to serve... as it has been said before, they probably have a better
understanding of what their in for and still choose to serve. That's a big + in
my mind.
carebear
Member
Hell, I went to Boot at 20 back in '91 leaving a job that made me close to $40K a year just because I was bored with college and wanted to challenge myself. I did go Reserve cause I had other things going on at home but, so what, I'm a friggin' Marine now, cause I wanted it, not needed some kind of leg up.
Guy in my Infantry School class was 24 or 25 and left an $80K a year stock trading job for the same reason. Had a guy in Boot (late 20's) who was a Lt. in the Army, got out and had a business career, and then missed the life, when he came back into the Service he said he'd rather be enlisted in the Corps then an officer in Big Green again. Obviously it wasn't about what the military could do financially for any of us.
I've been out a little over a year and I miss it some. I'm toying with finishing my 20 in the Guard.
I'd say a guy who is 40, especially if he's single and has made his nut already, would be a prime candidate to join up and pay a little back for the opportunity his country helped give him to get that way or just learn a little more about himself.
Guy in my Infantry School class was 24 or 25 and left an $80K a year stock trading job for the same reason. Had a guy in Boot (late 20's) who was a Lt. in the Army, got out and had a business career, and then missed the life, when he came back into the Service he said he'd rather be enlisted in the Corps then an officer in Big Green again. Obviously it wasn't about what the military could do financially for any of us.
I've been out a little over a year and I miss it some. I'm toying with finishing my 20 in the Guard.
I'd say a guy who is 40, especially if he's single and has made his nut already, would be a prime candidate to join up and pay a little back for the opportunity his country helped give him to get that way or just learn a little more about himself.
Lone_Gunman
Member
I am willing to explain, if people will allow the discussion to remain civil, which to be honest, it has not, since someone called me an ass.
I said:
This statement is apparently very offensive to some. If you are offended by it, then I apologize, but that does not mean I disagree with my statement. I will attempt to elaborate one more time:
There are four types of 40 yr olds I can think of who would be willing to join the Army (and I realize they are generalizations, but will probably cover most 40 yr old volunteers. Certainly their would be exceptions):
1. The Patriot. This is someone who wants to serve their country. They give up their civilian life, and join the military. I think there are relatively few people out their who could do this, even if they wanted to. By age 40 most people have families to raise, mortgages to pay, etc. They would certainly make more money in the civilian world, but their sense of duty compels them to serve. As I said before, if this is your motivation, that is admirable. The fact that they start off as an E-1 is ok with them, because their motivation is patriotic. I do not think the Army will meet its recruitment goals by counting on large numbers of these people to join. My comments to do not apply to this person.
2. The Technician. This is someone with a useful skill, such as engineer, nurse, whatever. He has a useful skill, and when he joins the Army starts off as something higher than E-1. Motivation is patriotic, but he is not really giving up his whole lifestyle, since he will have a status similar to what he had in the civilian world, though probably less salary. I don't believe that raising the age of recruitment to 40 is likely to affect recruitment of these people, as many of the technical jobs in the military already have had the age requirements waived or extended. My comments do not apply to this person.
3. The Challenger. This is someone who is bored with their current job or life, and wants a change. He is joining mainly for personal reasons, not so much for patriotism as the need to do something more exciting. He doesn't mind taking a pay cut, and change in his life situation for the opportunity to have adventure. I think there are relatively few of these people, and my comments do not apply to them.
4. The Flunkie. This is the person who has no usable skill. He's been flipping burgers at McDonalds since he got out of high school, got fired last night, and has heard the Army will now take him even though he turned 40. This is the person I think will most likely be recruited by the Army with their new age criterial. His best job offer is to become a private in the Army. This is the person to whom my original quote refers. I don't think our Army is any better off if he joins. If your best job offer is to join the military at age 40, then it would seem you have wasted about 20 yrs.
I realize joining the military is more than a paycheck. If you are 40, and you are doing it just for the money, then you are to whom I am referring. No one else has reason to be insulted by what I have said.
I said:
This statement is apparently very offensive to some. If you are offended by it, then I apologize, but that does not mean I disagree with my statement. I will attempt to elaborate one more time:
There are four types of 40 yr olds I can think of who would be willing to join the Army (and I realize they are generalizations, but will probably cover most 40 yr old volunteers. Certainly their would be exceptions):
1. The Patriot. This is someone who wants to serve their country. They give up their civilian life, and join the military. I think there are relatively few people out their who could do this, even if they wanted to. By age 40 most people have families to raise, mortgages to pay, etc. They would certainly make more money in the civilian world, but their sense of duty compels them to serve. As I said before, if this is your motivation, that is admirable. The fact that they start off as an E-1 is ok with them, because their motivation is patriotic. I do not think the Army will meet its recruitment goals by counting on large numbers of these people to join. My comments to do not apply to this person.
2. The Technician. This is someone with a useful skill, such as engineer, nurse, whatever. He has a useful skill, and when he joins the Army starts off as something higher than E-1. Motivation is patriotic, but he is not really giving up his whole lifestyle, since he will have a status similar to what he had in the civilian world, though probably less salary. I don't believe that raising the age of recruitment to 40 is likely to affect recruitment of these people, as many of the technical jobs in the military already have had the age requirements waived or extended. My comments do not apply to this person.
3. The Challenger. This is someone who is bored with their current job or life, and wants a change. He is joining mainly for personal reasons, not so much for patriotism as the need to do something more exciting. He doesn't mind taking a pay cut, and change in his life situation for the opportunity to have adventure. I think there are relatively few of these people, and my comments do not apply to them.
4. The Flunkie. This is the person who has no usable skill. He's been flipping burgers at McDonalds since he got out of high school, got fired last night, and has heard the Army will now take him even though he turned 40. This is the person I think will most likely be recruited by the Army with their new age criterial. His best job offer is to become a private in the Army. This is the person to whom my original quote refers. I don't think our Army is any better off if he joins. If your best job offer is to join the military at age 40, then it would seem you have wasted about 20 yrs.
I realize joining the military is more than a paycheck. If you are 40, and you are doing it just for the money, then you are to whom I am referring. No one else has reason to be insulted by what I have said.
carebear
Member
Lone_Gunman said:
Oh, I think we realized what you meant, I just massively disagree on your assumption about the proportions. The 40 year old loser isn't going to sign up at all. If they were ever going to join the Army, it would have been when they were a 25 year old loser. There's no comparative benefit to do all that work for the same pay and a harsher, riskier life at 40.
The only guys motivated enough to join at 40 are going to be the successful types, I'll put money on it (though I'm not sure how we'd tell).
Also, as you know, anyone with college is coming in at E-2 or -3 and a successful business leader who is a quick study is gonna be an NCO posthaste.
Lone_Gunman
Member
I will gladly state that my proportions are totally my opinion, and could be wrong.
However, I wonder why the Army had the cut off age set at 35 (or whatever it was). Was it because they didnt think there were 40 yr olds capable of meeting the physical demands of boot camp, or because they thought they would pick up a bunch of late-30s losers?
However, I wonder why the Army had the cut off age set at 35 (or whatever it was). Was it because they didnt think there were 40 yr olds capable of meeting the physical demands of boot camp, or because they thought they would pick up a bunch of late-30s losers?
carebear
Member
I'd guess physical reasons and medical care reasons (fragile old hips) and hitting mandatory retirement before they get their pound of flesh.
Plus, they had to pick a number for convenience and 35 probably seemed like it would exclude more unsuitable types prior to doing the indoc. Now, with better aging going on and a need for more bodies, might be time to widen the net again. I can't believe they aren't also reacting politically to a perceived express desire by older guys to get into the fight.
Plus, they had to pick a number for convenience and 35 probably seemed like it would exclude more unsuitable types prior to doing the indoc. Now, with better aging going on and a need for more bodies, might be time to widen the net again. I can't believe they aren't also reacting politically to a perceived express desire by older guys to get into the fight.
cowboybobb693
Member
Lone_Gunman said:
let me clarify.
The FEDERAL Govt. had the maximum age set because you would have needed to perform 20 years of active service prior to reaching mandatory retirement age. They have now modified the retirement age and older folks can now join the Armed Forces. It just took the Military Services a number of years to get that idea passed to JCS and other folks.
As far as a 40 year old making it through basic training I believe that quite a few of us could, as a matter of fact I made it through Special Forces training at 41, of course I was prior service as a USAF Pararescueman and was in pretty good shape. Given that we now have folks out there that run marathons at age 65 attests to the fact that we as a society are in better shape than ever before.
carebear
Member
All I know is that as a former Marine I don't have to do any other service's Basic if I go back in.
I did it right the first time.
I did it right the first time.
Ezekiel
Member
I don't see the issue?
I'll be the one: I wholeheartedly agree. If -- at forty years of age -- your best prospect is as an Army E-1, you've spent 22 years screwing up.
Quite simply, if your twenty-two years of civilian life have not given you any education, skills, knowledge or trade that matters beyond the initial enlisted rating, then you should have tried harder.
That's fact. I don't understand why anyone is upset. Are folks a little "touchy" on this issue? Why?
Lone_Gunman said:
I'll be the one: I wholeheartedly agree. If -- at forty years of age -- your best prospect is as an Army E-1, you've spent 22 years screwing up.
Quite simply, if your twenty-two years of civilian life have not given you any education, skills, knowledge or trade that matters beyond the initial enlisted rating, then you should have tried harder.
That's fact. I don't understand why anyone is upset. Are folks a little "touchy" on this issue? Why?
U.S.SFC_RET
Member
Yes the Army is hurting for personnel so they turn to the 40 year old. The Army being the biggest service of them all will feel the pinch for personnel first not to mention the nature of the assignments that come along with it. During peace time the Army is usually the first to cut back on personnel as well. If a guy wants to join the Army at 40 he better be ready to take orders from someone who's 20 and up and if he or she has a problem with it will have a most difficult time adjusting to it. The biggest challenge they face is taking decisions from much younger leaders who most probable won't listen to the (wisdom of the ages). The next problem is they will get lumped together with 18 and 19 year old privates that he or she will not have anything in common with. This new soldier will be faced with a few setbacks. As for him talking to someone his age chances are if he does it will probable be fraternization with the higher ranks, ie Senior Noncommissioned Officer or Officer. The Army is not a bed of roses for a 40 year old private.
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