Quantcast
  1. This site uses cookies. By continuing to use this site, you are agreeing to our use of cookies. Learn More.

US Marines need your help

Discussion in 'Legal' started by KC&97TA, Jun 21, 2006.

Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.
  1. KC&97TA

    KC&97TA Member

    Joined:
    Jul 17, 2005
    Messages:
    792
    http://cbs13.com/homepage/topstories_story_172112959.html

    For those of you who don't watch the news, 7 Marines and 1 Corps Man were charged today with; Murder, Kidnapping, conspiracy, larceny and providing false official statements. Weather they're guilty or not is beyond any of our opinions.

    The sad facts remains that these are young men, with the oldest of them being a Sgt, stuck in a high stress situation for months at a time, trained to kill embodied into thier brains, the life or death strugle more apperant than hunger or thirst, emotionally over welmed by the loss of one of thier comrads, acted on what thier guts told them, out of instinct for survival and blacked out by fear.

    What do you think is going to happen when you train, young (18-23 year old) impressionable men, to go into a combat zone, give them weapons of war, put them face to face with death on a daily basis? I train Marines everday, weather it be Rifle Marksman Ship or Tactical Weapons Training, we're trained to ID target and shoot... if only it were that simple. There is no way to properly train men for the insurgent war fare we're faceing in Iraq. It is a horribly bloody war, with an enemy most often not seen till it is too late. Till you see your friends killed, dismembered, burned and strugleing for life, you wouldn't understand how horrific it really is.

    I speak the above, with the experiance of two bloody combat tours, I am a combat wounded Veteran, I've been there, I've bleed, I've provied first aid to my fellow Marines, I've been unfortuneate to put a few men inside body bags, I've killed, I've lead other men to kill, I've made split second decisions that ment life or death. I'm tourtured by Post Tramatic Stress, Surviror Syndrome, constant nightmares, flash backs, substantial loss of hearing, and I see the results of war on the faces of my Marines everyday, who have "been there"... all the extra pay in the world, doesn't make up for the emotional effects of war are.

    I can't stand silently as our country brutalizes these men, for being put into a situation, were right and wrong pay no toll. Please don't stand by, the politics of this war on Terror, have destroyed the Rules of Engagement, how many more men & women have to die or be injurred before we realize, that there hasn't been peace in the middle east since before the time of Jesus, and there never will be peace there, murder and force is all these people know, it's how Saddam controled them.

    I urge everyone who reads this to please contact thier; Goveners and Congress men. Contact Head Quarters Marine Corps.

    These men would rather be judged by 12 than carried by 6, but I hope it doesn't come to that, the sad truth is they won't get a fair trial, thier jurry will probly consist of 12 men or women, who have never been to combat, who've never sheed blood, who don't know and who don't understand what these 8 men faced that day, they will be scape goated by the country the swore to protect to save face.
     
  2. Biker

    Biker Member

    Joined:
    Mar 10, 2005
    Messages:
    6,105
    Location:
    Idaho
    Dunno Bro, have to wait until a few facts are made available. There's always more than meets the eye. I hope to hell they're innocent.

    Biker
     
  3. nick012000

    nick012000 Member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    10
    So... what did they do, exactly?

    Accidentally shooting a civilian in a war zone is strikingly different to abducting and murdering someone, and judging by the charges being levelled at them, it sounds like it was the latter that they did.
     
  4. longeyes

    longeyes member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    7,227
    Location:
    True West...Hotel California
    Our military is at the fault-line of the our great internal culture war. I'm afraid we can expect a lot more of these "incidents." They are grand political theater. Demoralizing our military is certainly part of the game-plan of people who would like to weaken this Republic.

    I don't know the facts of this particular situation. I do know that our soldiers didn't sign on to be missionaries or social workers or an underpaid construction brigade.
     
  5. gripper

    gripper Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2004
    Messages:
    826
    Location:
    Nashua NH
    Is there a way to donate???
     
  6. FTF

    FTF member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    561
    I'm an ex-Marine and I do sympathize somewhat. I missed the 'window' for any sort of war while I was in, so I can't really relate to their mental condition or stress level in that theater, but there 'are' a few details that jump out at me as 'sketchy', regardless of the situation.

    8 on 1 (7 Marines, 1 corpsman)... the number alone makes me wonder. I'm not sure that even some wannabe martyr would draw on 7 armed Marines within yards and expect to accomplish anything other than dying w/o shots fired. Usually they seem to have at least a bomb or bust some caps from behind a wall or something... not just suicide w/o a chance... but who knows.

    The 7 Marines and 1 corpsman also seems 'to me' that they were on a somewhat unorthodox movement. It's more than fire team and less than squad size... and I've never seen a corpsman attached to a 7 man anything... of course, nobody knows what their circumstances were, but it does seem a bit odd. I'm sure special circumstances dictate special tactics, but I can't imagine, at least from my experience, where a 7 man patrol and 1 corpsman would even waste the time shaking down some Iraqi house (which is what I gather from the news).

    I'm not sure what we could do to help them. Most likely they will be assigned military counsel (donations won't help)... I'm sure there is the off chance, especially for such a crime as they are charged with, that they may choose to get a civillian lawyer, but it's unlikely. Not many civillian lawyers specialize in military law... not can practice it effectively... lawyering for military types requires more knowledge of the law, both of the UCMJ as well as the constitution and I imagine most lawyers aren't willing to take on all this additional load for the payment they likely would receive from a military type aka poor.

    Guess we'll just wait for the facts to come out. Good luck with that though... still waiting on the facts surrounding the death of Pat Tillman... or any charges. The military is much like the police... they keep it all in the ranks and away from the public eye as much as possible, lest their reputation be 'tarnished'... I'm a vet, not afraid to say it lol.

    Hopefully justice will be served. It's a capital case, I sincerely hope they get adequate representation. Their sentences may come out a year from now and last for 10 minutes on msnbc.com... of course, nobody will care by then because something else will take over the news. Probably 10 years in Leavenworth if convicted of murder, which will be plead down to conduct unbecoming or something... I can't recall when a military peep was sentenced to death or anything... civiliians for treason, yes, but not even mai lai IIRC.
     
  7. crazed_ss

    crazed_ss Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,652
    Location:
    Sunny San Diego
    I did 5 years in the Marines and I hope these guys didnt do anything wrong.
    I dont know the details of the case though.
    If they deliberately conspired to kidnap an murder someone, then they have to do down for it. That's just unnacceptable.
    When it comes down to it, right is right and wrong is wrong.

    If their actions were justified, then hopefully those in the jury let them go free. I have confidence in military courts. They usually dont bow to political pressure. They do what's right IMO. Remember that Marine that killed that Iraqi who was laying on the floor in the Mosque? He got off.

    Now the Abu Ghairb poeple went down hard as they should. Just because our guys are in tough situations doesnt mean they have an excuse to stoop to the enemy's level. If they do, then we're no better than them.
     
  8. Just_a_dude_with_a_gun

    Just_a_dude_with_a_gun Member

    Joined:
    Feb 14, 2006
    Messages:
    557
    Location:
    Peoples Republik of Neu Jersey
    What I have heard about the incident, is that these 8 servicemen killed a man who they said they found digging a hole by the side of the road.

    "People" claim he wasn't making a hole for an IED, and that he was an innocent man, and that the servicemen placed small arms near the body to make it look like he was an insurgent. He's dead, and his cronies, if they exist, aren't going to come forward and say 'yeah, he's one of us', so know we have a feel-food witch hunt.
     
  9. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    20,684
    Location:
    Norra Texas
    Agreed, in spades.

    I can't make that leap.

    I've never been raped nor have I ever been tempted to commit rape nor have I ever watched a rape be committed, but I believe that I am capable of sitting on a sexual assault trial and rendering a rational verdict as to whether a rape occurred or not. In short, I cannot agree that it requires having 'been there' to be able to judge whether or not the rules of engagement were followed.

    I empathize with these guys - I really do. There but for the grace of god go I, as the saying goes. But at some point, stress of combat or not, murder is still murder. I have to presume (until somebody can prove me wrong) that the DoD is still capable of discriminating between lawful and unlawful acts.

    Have there been prior examples in the current conflict in Iraq or Afghanistan where US soldiers/sailors/marines/airmen were railroaded into convictions that were demonstrably unfounded?
     
  10. FTF

    FTF member

    Joined:
    Jun 21, 2006
    Messages:
    561
    War on Terror?

    Try "A global struggle against violent extremism"...

    Where have you been :scrutiny:

    Your terminology is like, so 1980.;)
     
  11. shooter94

    shooter94 Member

    Joined:
    Mar 2, 2005
    Messages:
    98
    Location:
    Southern Nevada, where Hairy Reed lives
    Our military is at the fault-line of the our great internal culture war. I'm afraid we can expect a lot more of these "incidents." They are grand political theater. Demoralizing our military is certainly part of the game-plan of people who would like to weaken this Republic.

    I don't know the facts of this particular situation. I do know that our soldiers didn't sign on to be missionaries or social workers or an underpaid construction brigade.
    __________________

    Agreed Longeyes...the lingering damage of the Clinton administration still hasn't been rectified. When Bush rolled into office, he kept certain individuals that should have been purged. Clinton turned the greatest Military in the world into a social experiment.

    The Press is largely responsible for those Marines on trial...imbedded Press is a new phenominae...left over from Vietnam. The same generation that covered that war is covering this one. The press is looking for one thing only, revenge because their boy "Kerry" lost the election.

    This trial is the surface of a larger and deeper problem...that we're so divided as a Country between left and right, that we're willing to throw these guys into the brig just because they were on the CBS eveing news with Dan Rather.

    Our Military is not a social experiment. What we're seeing here can be comparred to the last days of Rome...
     
  12. Car Knocker

    Car Knocker Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    3,809
    Location:
    Salt Lake City, UT
    That's incorrect. There have been embedded journalists since at least WWII. Ernie PYle comes immediately to mind:

    Also, if my memory hasn't totally packed it in, Dan Rather hasn't been anchoring the CBS Evening News since early 2005.
     
  13. mons meg

    mons meg Member

    Joined:
    Dec 24, 2002
    Messages:
    727
    Location:
    Logan County, OK
    I'm a little rusty here, but the eventual General Court-martial is actually a tribunal, isn't it, with a military panel taking the place of the jury? Chances are the people deciding guilt or innocence will know all too well what those men were facing, I think.
     
  14. Leatherneck

    Leatherneck Member

    Joined:
    Dec 28, 2002
    Messages:
    2,545
    Location:
    No. Virginia and Northern Neck
    A General Court Martial is a trial in every sense of the word. And I believe (hope?) the Marine Corps will be wise enough to populate it with Marines who have been there, done that, and wear the t-shirt. Because as the OP points out, the stress these guys operate under is enough to destroy a man. That is a mitigating factor.

    You would not want a U. S. Marine Corps that would turn a blind eye to murder. So let's let the trials play out; there probably will be circumstances and testimony we haven't begun to hear about.

    TC
     
  15. Thin Black Line

    Thin Black Line Member

    Joined:
    Sep 4, 2005
    Messages:
    3,213
    Location:
    Amerikan Twilight Zone
    This is a psychological truth the American public can't deal with. However,
    the harder truth to deal with is using Marines and Soldiers as Law
    Enforcement Officers 6400 miles away in a culture that is completely
    alien to our own. It's a "culture" that's not even homogenous among the
    people who live there! It's wrong. Wrong tool for the wrong job. People
    who cite post-WWII occupation of Germany and Japan as successful and
    therefore possible in Iraq are comparing two apples to a dried date.

    The ROE was a major complaint when I was there as we saw our protective
    bubble shrink. There were times when we thought we were about to get
    t-boned by a SVBIED in 05 that would have been lit-up long before it got
    that close in 03. In retrospect, these were often dumb drivers, people in a
    hurry, etc. The same kind of crap that leads to accidents here in America
    every day. The flip side was the possibility of bad guys testing the bubble
    and getting progessively closer. Civilians can't understand what this does
    to your way of thinking. The most paranoid CONUS wannabee can't imagine
    it. You have to live it. Period.

    As Americans, though, We have to take responsibility for where we put our
    soldiers. In the Haditha case, if indeed there were little kids (as young as 3)
    each with single 5.56 bullets put put through their heads, there is no way
    around this. If this is what happened, we should be horrified. If we are no
    longer horrified, then something is wrong with all of us.
     
  16. Pilgrim

    Pilgrim Member

    Joined:
    Dec 25, 2002
    Messages:
    2,957
    Location:
    Nevada, escaped from the PDRK via Idaho.
    A General Court Martial will have at the minimum 5 members plus the military judge. I'm sure there will be more than five members on the 'jury' in this case.

    The accused may request that 1/3 the panel be enlisted members. The covening authority shall make every effort to provide a panel consisting of 1/3 enlisted members or explain in the record why they weren't available.

    A finding a guilt requires 2/3rds vote of the panel except in capital cases when the verdict must be unanimous.

    http://www.jag.navy.mil/documents/mcm2000.pdf

    The next step in this case is an Article 32 proceeding, which is the equivalent of a preliminary hearing.

    Pilgrim
     
  17. WT

    WT Member

    Joined:
    Jun 11, 2003
    Messages:
    1,985
    These Marines and corpsman should not be in the brig nor should they be brought to trial for murder. Sometimes in war ....... S*it happens!

    At the rate we are putting Soldiers and Marines in jail we will soon have to revert to the draft to fill the ranks.

    We ask a heck of a lot from these brave men and women who serve on the ground in Iraq and A-Stan. We owe them the benefit of a doubt if they didn't perform PERFECTLY every time they were in combat.

    War is H*ll.
     
  18. XDKingslayer

    XDKingslayer member

    Joined:
    Mar 1, 2006
    Messages:
    1,811
    Location:
    Port Charlotte, Fl.
    Accidently shooting a civilian in war is a good example of S*it happens.

    Possibly abducting a person, tying him up, putting him in a hole, stealing an AK and firing it around the area to make it look like you were attacked, and falsifying reports isn't.

    If they are innocent, then I will stand by me brothers. If they are guilty they aren't my brothers, are sorry excuses for Marines and deserve the punishment they get.

    Regardless of age, training, length of tour, buddies being killed...

    MARINES DON'T DO THAT!
     
  19. crazed_ss

    crazed_ss Member

    Joined:
    Dec 27, 2005
    Messages:
    1,652
    Location:
    Sunny San Diego
    Exactly.

    The Marines prides itself on discipline.

    If we start letting people do whatever they want just because they're in a war, our military will quickly degenerate into a giant mob with badass weapons.
     
  20. v8fbird

    v8fbird member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2006
    Messages:
    104
    So you want us to feel sorry for people who VOLUNTARILY signed up for this? It's not like the U.S. doesn't have a long and varied enough history of getting into wars in which it doesn't belong. You'd think people would learn.

    At what point does some of the blame fall upon the troops themselves for being the willing tools of our rulers?
     
  21. gripper

    gripper Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2004
    Messages:
    826
    Location:
    Nashua NH
    Elaborate,if you please....
     
  22. v8fbird

    v8fbird member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2006
    Messages:
    104
    Elaborate on elaborate and I'll elaborate. ;)
     
  23. rbernie
    • Contributing Member

    rbernie Member

    Joined:
    Jan 21, 2004
    Messages:
    20,684
    Location:
    Norra Texas
    Well said.
     
  24. gripper

    gripper Member

    Joined:
    Jan 7, 2004
    Messages:
    826
    Location:
    Nashua NH
    By "Elaborate" I am asking whether you are saying"they signed up so they don't need support" or what.We still do not know if in fact they are guilty.Look at the whole Haditha story;so far the credibility of both the reporter and the accusers is eroding;he has yet to say the same story twice.
    I may not be understanding you;so that is what "elaborate " means.Is "clarify" or "illustrate your point" better for you?
     
  25. v8fbird

    v8fbird member

    Joined:
    Apr 3, 2006
    Messages:
    104
    Obviously everyone has the right to be tried in a court of law.


    However, the original poster was talking about Marines in general. And when he was discussing the horrible conditions that people have to survive, he was trying to remove some of the guilt from the things that they do. Which, I was commenting, is ridiculous.

    You're right, the average Marine likely isn't guilty of a mass murder. But the fact remains - they are in another country, which is guilty of no crime or aggression. They invaded this country, killed, maimed, hurt (whether intentionally or not) thousands upon thousands of innocent people, and are now involved in the imposition of military rule upon the population, imposing curfews, unjustified searches and seizures, wrongful imprisonment, torture and, it's worth mentioning, CONFISCATION OF FIREARMS. Etc. Etc. Etc.

    Many people call this "collateral damage." I call it crime. Whether it's done by one thug on the street or by Marines "just obeying orders," and completely regardless of intent, it's absolutely the same thing. When someone commits a crime against a U.S. citizen, we expect that citizen to resist, even violently and with deadly force. In fact, we would encourage it. But when the Iraqis do JUST THAT, we call them "terrorists" or "insurgents." But the fact remains -- most of it is self defense.

    You ask me to feel sorry for criminals who fear those they are committing crimes against? If grandma pulls a snubnose out of her purse and shoots a mugger, do you feel sorry for the mugger because of the stress of the situation?

    If we were talking about Vietnam or various other wars where involuntary enlistment has been used, this would be a different story. In those cases, I WOULD feel sorry for soldiers who had been drafted. I WOULD argue that their actions were partially caused by mitigating circumstances, the same as if someone commits a crime because he has a gun to his head.

    But none of today's Marines are victims of impressment. They all signed up. They all knew (or if they didn't know they were willfully ignorant) of what they were getting. The U.S. has not been in a single justifiable war since the civil war, or the war between the states, or the war of northern aggression, or the war to prevent southern independence, or whatever you call it. And, even then, only the south's use of military force was justifiable. My point is that the American empire, that uses its mercenary forces to impose its will around the globe, did not just SNEAK UP on people. So there's no excuse for those who continue to sign up.

    Many people detest the government but "support our troops." But that position does not make much sense. If you really empathize with the troops, you should not support them, as your support makes them think that you approve of what they are doing. I hate the government, and I also place part of the blame on the troops.

    Tyrannical governments always need good troops to keep power. This has been the case since the beginning of time. Our government is no exception. If not for our troops, we would not be the world's policeman, and we would not be responsible for two of the most heinous crimes of human history (hiroshima and nagasaki). The blame cannot rest simply on those who hire the troops, just as the blame cannot rest only on the man who hires a hitman to kill your wife. Both parties must share in the blame. One is the tool of the other, but both are guilty of the crime.

    I hold this position not only because I feel sorry for the innocent people we are terrorizing around the globe, but also because I believe in the inherent, natural and God-given rights of all human beings. And if our troops are willing to follow orders that violate the natural rights of a foreign population, there is no reason to believe that they will not follow the same orders to violate the rights of the population here at home. And THAT, in particular, is what scares me most of all.

    P.S. - I wrote all that because I'm assuming that I'm not going to get the typical "like it or move to Canada" or "pussy coward traitor commie" response. Please don't prove me wrong.
     
Thread Status:
Not open for further replies.

Share This Page