US Military and the Beretta M9

[mljdeckard]

I might add, that I didn't mind the M-9 when I was younger, but after shooting mostly Glocks and 1911s for the last ten years or so, I have to qualify with one again, and I REALLY don't like the feel of the M-9, feels like a big lump in the middle of my palm. (But I can still shoot it just fine.)

 

[throw1out]

I borrowed a friends Beretta 92 fs to qualify for my ccw. At the time I was very impressed with it. All I had was revolvers. After getting a good deal on a used HK USP compact I totally lost interest in the Beretta. And now I have a few Sigs and just do not like the slide mounted safety on the Beretta.

 

[X-Rap]

I have to agree with those that have said the M9 may not have perfect ergonomics but they are able to shoot it and control it well enough to feel confident with it.
That may be its strongest point and the key to its success. Plus the high capacity and ease of maintenence make it a proven piece of combat equipment that while not perfect it is very good.

 

[Noveldoc]

Why the caliber changes .45 to 9mm and 308 to 223?

Simple answer. Money.

Smaller bullet, less powder and smaller cases. They're cheaper.

IN VN, Marines with crappy handed down equipment used to say the Corps would rather spend a man than a dollar. Some things never change.

Tom

 

[kingmt]

Why the caliber changes .45 to 9mm and 308 to 223?

Simple answer. Money.

Smaller bullet, less powder and smaller cases. They're cheaper.

IN VN, Marines with crappy handed down equipment used to say the Corps would rather spend a man than a dollar. Some things never change.

Tom

The men are easier to replace.

 

[JohnKSa]

It was pretty disheartening to read an FBI report on 9mm performance during a shootout/bank robbery, where several agents were killed execution style by a fellow with body armor and a mini 14.

It wasn't a bank robbery, it was a felony car stop made by an FBI team looking for some armed robbers.

The attacker was armed with a Mini-14 but he was not equipped with body armor.

Although there were well over 100 shots fired in the encounter, the FBI chose to focus its investigation on a single round of 9mm that dealt a fatal wound to the Mini 14 shooter early in the encounter. Although it penetrated through his arm on a diagonal track (about 4"), entered his chest already expanded, severed a major artery causing a wound that medical experts have stated would have been unsurvivable even with rapid medical attention, the FBI decided that the round had under performed because it stopped short of the heart. The conjecture was that the fight would have ended significantly sooner had it penetrated slightly deeper.

The FBI could have focused on the tactics used by the agents and the attackers, on the weaponry employed, on errors made by both sides, at the rounds fired that missed, but instead they essentially decided to blame the outcome of the whole encounter on this single round.

Had they chosen to point the investigation in a slightly different direction they could easily have concluded that equipping ALL the agents with high-capacity 9mms might have ended the fight much sooner. The point is that the result of the investigation was far more agenda driven than it was fact driven.

 

[poetgrey]

...thus one of the largest sales surge for firearms in recent history did ensue

 

[X-Rap]

In todays war I hardly think they consider a man as expendable as you say. I hope some vets and AD will speak up on the equipment and attitude about keeping a man protected and fighting compared to Vietnam, Korea, and WWII.
Today I believe a combat arms soldier is trained to the level of a SF soldier during Vietnam and far better equiped than the same. They have advanced tactical training, multi weapons, life saving, and personal protective equipment unrivaled in the world.
There will always be improvements to be made and some men have died because of equipment malfunctions but I sure as heck don't think we are sending men out to become cannon fodder as in some of the past wars.
As someone posted before "no war has been decided by what the armys sidearm was"

 

[psyopspec]

An AP article I read the other day reported that to take a young man or woman, send them through basic training, a 15-week AIT, equip them with uniforms, gear, weapons, train them up, pay them, and send them to Afghanistan for a 1 year tour cost about 1 million bucks per individual. I would hardly call that scrimping.

No one seems to get pissed off here if we lose an MRAP, as long as the people inside are okay. They're our fellow troops, yes, but if we're looking at it financially, a fire team riding in the back of an armored vehicle is more expensive than the vehicle.

 

[X-Rap]

My youngest son is waiting on news for an AF Academy apointment and they told him that by the time they are through college and flight school the average pilots education is around 1.5 million, thats ed. only no jet.
Add $450 for the M9 and you can do the math.

 

[Noveldoc]

One and a half million for training and only $450 for the pistol? Kinda makes my point.

Remember all you eat, wear, carry and shoot was made by the lowest bidder.

Tom

 

[psyopspec]

Trijicon, AimPoint, Colt, Safariland, Beretta, FN, Crimson Trace, PMAG, Crye, Danner, Oakley, Wiley, and whoever builds the MRAP, FBCB2, Shadow, Raven, Predator, CROW, NVGs, Flame-Retardent uniforms, and Panasonic who built the ToughBook I'm typing this on are more than welcome to keep bidding away then.

However, the food will always have room for improvement.

 

[silversport]

the Platt and Mattix shootout with the FBI didn't start the Wundernine war and that poor Winchester Silvertip did exactly what it was designed to do under the protocol available then...it was responsible for the developement of the 10MM for the FBI and later it being downloaded and then the 40 S&W...
Bill

 

[X-Rap]

Doc my other son carries or rides/uses most of the stuff that psyops posted and as you can see it is all top shelf.
I can't say I've seen anything that is in use that is cheap and shoddy, sure we might have an opinion or preference on a certain weapon or caliber but rest assured if our choice was in use somebody else would be bitching and there would be the same issues of failures that are highlighted today.
Training with the sidearm could be better and that alone would alleviate many of the short commings of the M9 but given that all soldiers are issued a rifle I say they should keep their focus on tactics with that primarilly, if a soldier who carries an M9 seeks additional training good for him, if he brings that back to his unit better yet.