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"Us vs. Them", Illegal Carry by the "Good Guys"

Discussion in 'Legal' started by Speedo66, Jul 2, 2009.

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  1. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    I feel like I'm going to be a Whopper, "flame broiled", but I've thought about this a bit and figured I'd throw it out here for comment.

    I see many posts here about "us" being the "good guys".

    Then someone will mention how regardless of the law, he (or she) is going to carry anyway or has carried in some spot they're not legal to carry, and will worry about the consequences later.

    Folks, once you cross that line, you are "them". You're no longer the good guy, you have become a criminal. You've commited an illegal act, a crime, even if you didn't get caught. Having a legal carry permit somewhere but carrying where it's illegal is still a crime, be it a state that doesn't recognize your permit, National Park, Post Office, business that has posted "no carry", etc.

    So what's the difference between you illegally carrying and "them" illegally carrying? Please don't tell us because you have no evil intent, because that's what "they" would say too. "Just carrying to protect myself", "I need it for protection", and they may indeed. But you didn't buy it when "they" said it though, did you?

    The bottom line is, no matter what you rationalize in your mind, you have become the bad guy. You may feel the law is unjustified, but it's still the law until it's recinded or modified, and you've broken it.

    Now think of all the names that the bad guys have been called here; thug, felon, skell, perp. Which one fits you best?

    Thoughts, comments, attacks? :uhoh:
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
  2. Oro

    Oro Member

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    I agree with you. If you think of yourself as a law-abiding person, you don't get to choose which laws you decide to "abide" by. Otherwise, your ethics are situational and not terribly firm.

    I'm not suggesting the only legitimate gun-owners are the boy scout type. But don't kid yourself about your ethical bona fides if you don't practice what you preach.
     
  3. Derek Zeanah

    Derek Zeanah System Administrator Staff Member

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    No attacks. Where I went to college we had armed security and were surrounded by a pretty serious fence. The local store was called The Murder Mart because the year before I started there a girl had been killed in a hold-up while buying last minute supplies for her boyfriend's birthday.

    Campus security had the rule that guns had to be stored in their shed under lock and key, and under no circumstances would they hold ammunition. I had a CCW, but this rule eliminated my ability to carry unless I was willing to either store my ammo on-campus or not check my gun, both of which were the sorts of behavior that could get me kicked out. You can guess what I did.

    Safety comes first. For a lot of people that justifies noncompliance with an (arguably) unconstitutional law/rule.
     
  4. theken206

    theken206 Member

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    "Safety comes first."

    as the man said

    I can get outta jail, I can pay lawyers and court fees. I cant get undead. Simple as that for me.
     
  5. w_houle

    w_houle Member

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    Bending one unjust law is a small thing when it comes to protecting one's family.
     
  6. John Parker

    John Parker Member

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    See, here's where it gets goofy though, for me anyway. If the 2nd Amendment really means that "...the right of the people to keep and bear arms shall not be infringed," then wouldn't it mean that a person does not need a carry permit because any laws prohibiting the carrying of firearms are unconstitutional? I'm certain that this point has been addressed before on THR. I still have conflicting feelings about this. I like knowing that CCWers are proven to be 'clean' as far as a criminal record goes, but I still feel that there should be no reason for a CCW permit to exist, given the 2nd Amendment comfirming a free person's right to bear arms. Most of us will break the law at some point; some even do it consistently, i.e. speeding, does that make otherwise good people 'them' as well?
     
  7. SCKimberFan

    SCKimberFan Member

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    If the law states I can't carry, I won't. However, if the facility is posted, but the sign does not meet standards set by the state, I carry. Does that make me one of them?
     
  8. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    Again we may all believe that the laws are unjustified, but the rationalization is "safety first" so far.

    I'm going to go out on a limb and figure most of the posters on this site are not minorities and don't live in inner city ghettos. But most of the negative posts here are about people like that with illegal guns. Probably many of them live in far more dangerous situations than you or I do.

    Is it OK for "them" to carry illegally for safety, or just "us"?

    Explain the difference for extra points.
     
  9. ConstitutionCowboy

    ConstitutionCowboy member

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    If you abide the Constitution, you are on the right side of the issue. If unconstitutional law has ever accomplished anything, it has been disastrous.

    Woody
     
  10. Oyeboten

    Oyeboten Member

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    Generally, anymore, Laws represent the outer comemorated formalities of facile, clumsy, and usually corrupt and grifting private-sector and or beurocratic self-interests, rendered into pronouncements of whoring paid Cocaine septum'd ledgislators, and, should be respetced in earnest, for what it is and represents.


    One may also reference the Joe Stalin charm school 'Show Trials' at Nurmberg, for assaying contexts of how 'following orders' or 'laws' may conflict with higher moral and intellectual insight and personal integrity.
     
  11. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    If it doesn't meet the standards of the law, then I guess you haven't broken it, legally. Morally, against some property owners wishes, it's up to you to decide.

    But let me state that I do not hold myself out as a moral or legal standard, nor as the board's conscience.

    Just looking for others feelings on this idea.
     
  12. Derek Zeanah

    Derek Zeanah System Administrator Staff Member

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    Well, you're pulling off my post, so I'll offer my opinions.

    I don't like the idea of "legal" and "illegal" firearms. I don't like the idea of classifying a group of people (felons) as those who lose the right to effectively defend themselves and their families forever and ever because they made a mistake once (or didn't, but ended up on the wrong side of the law for some other reason.)

    I'd say Vermont-style carry should be the norm everywhere, and limitations on what guns you can own based on magazine capacity, or how many times it fires per trigger pull, or the existence of an integrated muffler, or size are just stupid. In truth the people we should truly fear are those who will arm themselves regardless of the laws or the legality of their weapons of choice, and we should have a right to defend ourselves.

    If I had an 18 year old daughter who was about to go off to college I'd give some serious thought to this issue with regard to her as well, though I wouldn't share my concerns or conclusions anywhere on the Internet.
     
  13. w_houle

    w_houle Member

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    I live on the corner of No and Where. Kansas is a Right to Carry state so I can open carry without issue, and being in an area where people know who I am at a distance is nice.
    I say that those who are protecting themselves as "us" and those who are looking to get through life by cheating at it is one of "them". MY opinion is that everyone deserves the right to be armed until they lose the right to have their life, for we are ALL equal; not up-standings and felons. If someone cannot be trusted with a weapon, then maybe it should be seriously considered as to why they are still stealing good peoples oxygen.
    Criminality as a form of class-ism? Yeah, I know: it's more likely than you think. Or maybe it does go back to racist roots of evil brown people owning guns that cause people to stay awake at night.
     
  14. Birdmang

    Birdmang Member

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    I would go anywhere in my state without a firearm and be completely content, maybe uneasy at times, but I feel I have seen the worst of the worst and if you mind your own business then you will be fine.

    I don't have kids or a family, that will change someday, so maybe my views will as well.

    I believe that the law is the law regardless of what an unincorporated amendment (hopefully soon to change) has to say about it. If you choose to break the law based on something higher or more important then that is fine, just be prepared to face consequences.
     
  15. DeepSouth

    DeepSouth Member

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    One thing to consider, even if you carry where it is legally forbidden, you still haven't broken the law. Our Constitution says we don't have to obey any law that is contrary to it (the Constituation) So technically there are thousands of 'illegal laws' on the books.


    And buy your description we are all most likely criminals, it is illegal to speed I break that frequently. So I guess I'm a repeat offender of that and other crimes

    All this said I only carry where it is "legal" not because I think the laws are right, but because I don't want to suffer the consequences of getting caught.


    Rember the old saying,"It is better to be judged by twelve than carried by six"

    Don't forget Suzanna Hupp, had she been "illegally" carrying many, many people may be alive today that are now statistics.

    A two min. video will remind you of her story....HERE
     
  16. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    I'd like to live in a state with Vermont laws also, would have made my 40 years as a peace officer a bit easier.

    But if everyone carries illegally because the "bad" guy may have one, we've become......

    Let's face it, everyone breaks the law to some extent, I doubt there's anyone on the site, my self included, who hasn't exceeded the speed limit.

    The question is, how far do you want to go?

    One more thing. I'm not judging anyone. I'm just interested in everyone's thoughts on this, and I thank you all for your honest opinions.
     
  17. hillbillydelux

    hillbillydelux Member

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    I have to go with the right vs. wrong here. If I carry and mind my own buisness and dont bother or instigate anyone. If I am not doing anything outside the law I am in the right. If however someone tries to take something that belongs to me, harm a member of the family or harm me they are wrong. Easy as that. No matter what the law says I would be right and they would be wrong. Now unfortunatly things arent quite that simple for alot of people and the difference between right and wrong escapes a large amount of the U.S. population, But for me its good enough.
     
  18. yenchisks

    yenchisks member

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    my kids decided to go out to the river with a friend there all in there teens ,my oldest drove,they told me where they were going but i've never been there so,I figured I'd check it out,it was about 15 miles from home,way out in the country. Anyway when I got there I noticed there was alot of shot gun shells and 22 shells of people having shot out there. Then the thought occured to me what if some nut came out of the woodwork and started shooting at me and my kids and I don't have a ccw and also on my motorcycle therefore not having a gun with me I felt we were very helpless
     
  19. maroast

    maroast Member

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    Skell. Definitely skell.
     
    Last edited: Jul 2, 2009
  20. Speedo66

    Speedo66 Member

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    LOL

    You cracked me up with that one.

    Some of you may not recognize it, but that's the common term in the NYPD for a "lowlife", thug, etc.

    I wasn't in the NYPD, but I worked for a state law enforcement agency in NYC for my entire career.

    Heard that term, oh maybe, 50 gazillion times.
     
  21. wyocarp

    wyocarp Member

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    By having a permit, we aren't saying that we are perfect and never break any laws. There are police officers who wouldn't be allowed to have a permit.

    Those making the laws can't decide if we have the right to protect ourselves in the national parks.

    I can decide for myself. I'll break that law everytime I go into yellowstone. Stop me and I'll have a gun.
     
  22. DawgsFan_07

    DawgsFan_07 Member

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    What is law? According to men like Rutherford, Locke, and Montequies (sp?) law is far more than the dictate of a king or desk jockey.

    In my humble opinion, they are true lawbreakers, ones who would violate the rights of people weaker than them by force or fraud. If you are earning an honest living, you are not a criminal by defending yourself.
     
  23. danbrew

    danbrew member

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    Good one. Some laws are unjust. What about the laws that permitted only landowners to vote? Or literacy tests to vote? Those unjust laws were eventually overturned.

    You can have a great debate with some people about just and unjust laws. The doper will say that he hurts nobody by smoking dope. I disagree with that, but not passionately enough to argue with somebody on the issue. Until 2003 there were 14 states that outlawed consensual sexual acts between two men. I disagree with those laws. It's illegal for a 40 year old man to have sex with a 17 year old girl. I agree with that law. But disagree with that same law when it is an 18 year old man having sex with his 17 year old girlfriend.

    So... there are just and unjust laws. Who do I hurt by illegally carrying concealed?

    Judge me by what I've done. Not what you think I'll do.

    When I start robbing people, great, lock me up.

    How can a concealed weapon carried by a responsible adult possibly be a danger to society?

    Wouldn't it make more sense to say "don't break the laws that are designed to keep people safe and don't hurt other people"? How about rape? I'm perfectly equipped to rape. As a matter of fact, I've got a penis (and it's huge) and I've successfully carried it for 40-odd years without throwing anyone down on the ground and raping them. What is it again about me and my concealed weapon that makes someone think that I'm going to start robbing and causing all sorts of mayhem?

    :D
     
  24. 30mag

    30mag Member

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    I'm a libertarian, and while I do not practice civil disobedience often, I will advocate it.

    Laws do not equal morals. Period.
     
  25. mljdeckard

    mljdeckard Member

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    On THR, we follow the law, PERIOD. Breaking the law, and TALKING ABOUT IT IN A PUBLIC FORUM, does nothing to help our cause. Posts promoting illegal activity are shut down quickly by the mods, and I praise them for doing so.
     
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