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Used Suppressors

Discussion in 'NFA Firearms and Accessories' started by JustinJ, Oct 21, 2013.

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  1. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    My LGS has a few used 5.56 cans for between $250 and $300. They have Gemtechs and another brand, I don't recall. All are direct thread and were trade ins from the SWAT teams of a midsize city (Temple, TX) so high round counts. They came mounted to 10.5 Colts but are being sold separately. The rifles are for sale as well and have seem some hard use. Some of the cans look to be in good shape while others display what appears to be degradation of the baffle holes. It looks like erosion but could be baffle strikes. Given the automatic $200 additional cost and long wait I can't see going cheap for such a purchase but was curious if any others had thoughts on the matter. I have read though that cans actually can get quieter with time because of all the carbon deposits but it seems the baffle hole erosion would offset sound dampening from carbon.
     
  2. GarySTL

    GarySTL Member

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    I'd say buy a new one. Tax is the same and you'll know it's a good unit. Not much of a market for used ones I've always been told.
     
  3. Telekinesis

    Telekinesis Member

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    I'm usually a big proponent of buying used cans because the majority of people treat their cans well and you can usually get some really good deals because the market for used cans is practically nonexistent, meaning you have very few other buyers to contend with.

    That said however, I would not buy a .223 can that had been used like that. Most manufacturers won't warranty their cans on barrels that short for good reason: baffle erosion. Enough use on a barrel that short and you will eventually need a new baffle stack/core. I would also be willing to bet a lot of the use was quick firing that would really heat up the can which is definitely not good for its longevity.

    All in all, I'd pass on these cans.
     
  4. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    Would it be economically feasible to have a can rebuilt by the manufacturer or would it end up being more expensive than just buying new?
     
  5. Willie Sutton

    Willie Sutton Member

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    The only really financially viable option for cans like this is transfer tax-free to other LE outfits that want training cans for cheap. Once you put the tax stamp on them, as a percentage of total cost, you are in the territory of "why bother?". That's of course unless they are the latest generation of the big makers, in which case... <shrugs>... it's your call.


    Willie

    .
     
  6. Bubbles

    Bubbles Member

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    Gemtech's customer service and quality are good enough that I wouldn't hesitate to purchase one of their used suppressors.
     
  7. hentown

    hentown Member

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    You can, of course, buy a used can directly from a governmental agency, via form 5, without having to pay a transfer tax. I'm in the process of doing that right now for a transferable Mac 10 with suppressor.

    Gemtech offerred to "modernize" that old Mac suppressor for $150. Sounds like a bargain, to me. ;)
     
  8. Captains1911

    Captains1911 Member

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    Gemtech is by no means on the high end of the quality suppressor scale. I'd definitely pass.
     
  9. crazy-mp

    crazy-mp Member

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    I would agree a shot out gemtech will be just as loud as a new in box one, your buying a really expensive muzzle break when you buy gemtech. SBR's are hard on suppressors, many companies will state on their web site if the can is rated for SBR use or not.

    I would pay another 150-200 for a mid range new one before I would buy a used one, unless you have excess funds and need another suppressor for your SBR.
     
  10. dprice3844444

    dprice3844444 member

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    if they were still good,why did the cops turn them in?
     
  11. Ranb

    Ranb Member

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    That is news to me. How can you avoid the $200 tax unless it is being transferred to a government entity or museum?

    Ranb
     
  12. hentown

    hentown Member

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    Take a look at the Form 5. l It's for transfers to or from a governmental agency. There is no preclusion from a transfer being made to a private citizen.
     
  13. MErl

    MErl Member

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    so theoretically a gov agency could be setup that only did this: (in some friendly state of course)
    "Buy suppressors direct from manufacturers and resell them to citizens of that state while avoiding the $200 tax and making a profit to run the show."
     
  14. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    How does one get lucky enough to convince a government agency to transfer their old SBR's and cans to him?
     
  15. Ranb

    Ranb Member

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    How are you getting around the requirements in the NFA Title 26, Chapter 53?
    http://www.atf.gov/files/publications/download/p/atf-p-5300-4.pdf
    The law goes on to exempt licensed dealers, importers and manufacturers also. I don't see anything about obtaining a tax-free firearm from the government at all.

    Unless you are a government official I don't see how you can do this.

    Just because a form says you can get a title ii gun from the government without paying the tax this doesn't mean the law allows it. Has the application been approved yet?

    Ranb
     
  16. wally

    wally Member

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    Non-sense. In actual testing all the makers are arguing "superiority" over 2-3 db differences which is about what it take for an untrained listener to reliably detect A is louder than B or vice-versa. If you look at detailed readings you'll often see this much variation within a string of 10 shots with the same can on the same gun.

    This is true, in fact assume its true that they are not rated for SBR usage unless stated otherwise.

    GemTech states on their website and in the owners manual that 11" is the SBR minimum barrel for their 5.56 suppressors.

    https://www.gem-tech.com/store/pc/viewContent.asp?idpage=7#31

    There are two main reasons: "uncorking pressure" which could be solved with a stronger, heavier design, but bullet stability issues that could cause baffle strikes is a larger problem that would require a larger bore reducing effectiveness or requiring even more length and thus mass.
     
  17. mmissile

    mmissile Member

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    quote" if they were still good,why did the cops turn them in? "quote


    Many departments have budgets that require they spend money to maintain their budgets, or add to them.
     
  18. hentown

    hentown Member

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    So, Ranb, who is the transferor, in my scenario? Governmental agencies are not charged a transfer tax, whether buying or selling (or gifting) NFA items.

    You supplied your own answer in the quote that you furnished. There is no tax, to or from a governmental agency, and there's no prohibition from a governmental agency's transferring an NFA item to a private citizen.
     
  19. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    They were attached to a pair of 10.5 colt AR's. Apparently the shop had to first ultrasound them while on the barrel in order to get them off. The AR's were pretty beat up.

    The cops may also have wanted to simply upgrade or convert to a different system such as quick detach.
     
  20. JustinJ

    JustinJ Member

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    Yeah, I saw that. Awfully convenient given the prevalence of 10.5 Colt AR's.
     
  21. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Member

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    No he didn't. You're adding the word "from". His quote only said "to."

    It's confusing for sure. The form certainly seems to say "to and from" but the law just says "to."

    So, I think his question to you is fair: have you or anyone you know ever had the ATF approve a tax-free transfer from a government to an individual?

    Aaron
     
  22. Ranb

    Ranb Member

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    That would be the government agency you are obtaining the firearm from.

    Can you quote the law that says this?

    Can you quote the words I used that say there is no tax for a transfer from a government agency?
    Link to the law that says this please?

    I agree with this part.

    Ranb
     
  23. hentown

    hentown Member

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    AAMOF, he DID provide the answer to his own question, as I so adroitly pointed out in my previous response. "Who pays the tax?" The transferor. Who is the transferor, per his info? The governmental agency. There is no tax on a transfer from a governmental agency to anybody, whether another agency or a private citizen.

    O.K., so I have a confession to make. I've been sandbagging a couple of you guys. Please forgive me. Copy n' pasting a copy of an email that I personally received from the NFA National Office, which clarifies this matter, in plain English.

    The reason I asked for the guidance of the NFA National Office is that I have been offered a MAC 10 with suppressor by the local Sheriff. The MAC is pre'86, and is transferable.

    Actual Class III dealers told me, on other forums, that such tax-free transfers are fine. I wanted confirmation.

    " No, a transfer tax is never imposed when a weapon is being transferred to or from a government entity. It does not matter if the weapon is being transferred to an individual, dealer or another government agency. The correct form you should use when transferring a weapon from or to a government entity is an ATF Form 5, (Application for Tax Exempt Transfer and Registration of a Firearm). This form is used to apply for tax-exempt transfers of National Firearms Act (NFA) firearms to government agencies. If you have additional questions, please contact the NFA Branch at (202) 927-8330."

    thank you
    -----Original Message-----
    From: EPS Directorate
    Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 4:18 PM
    To: FES Division
    Subject: -NFA: Transfer of Class II Devices



    -----Original Message-----
    From:
    Sent: Wednesday, July 14, 2004 12:51 PM
    To: EPS Directorate
    Subject: Transfer of Class II Devices


    Would you please verify for me whether a transfer tax is imposed on a tax-exempt organization, eg., county Sheriff's Dept., when that tax-exempt organization transfers a Class II firearm or device to a private citizen? (The firearm & device in question were purchased by the Sheriff's Dept. during the 1970's and were properly registered at that time with the BATF.)

    What would be the proper form for registering such a transfer with BATFE?

    Thank you for your assistance.

    Sincerely,

    I took the liberty of removing my personal info. Hope this clarifies the question. Was just having a little fun with you guys. I knew the answer all along. If you're lucky enough to find a local l.e. agency with an NFA item that they want to sell, then you may do so, via Form 5, with no transfer tax.
     
  24. Ranb

    Ranb Member

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    That e-mail is 9 years old. Could you forward the e-mail to me? Who was the individual who sent it to you? Every time I have received a reply from the NFA branch I got their name and address. The industry professionals I've talked to said this kind of tax free transfer can't happen.

    Randy Bragge
    ranb40@yahoo.com
    Belfair, WA
    (360) 440-5889
     
    Last edited: Oct 28, 2013
  25. Aaron Baker

    Aaron Baker Member

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    So, to clarify, you were basically being a jerk. Or at least attempting to.

    But also to clarify, did this transfer actually happen? Because the ATF has been known to give bad information to people. I understand that the Form 5 itself seems to indicate that this can happen, but the law itself only references transfers TO governmental agencies.

    I believe that you have an e-mail from the ATF saying that this can happen, and that other dealers have told you it can happen. What I don't believe, without some confirmation, is that it has ever actually happened.

    Aaron
     
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