Using glue to hold barrels in place?

[Revolver.45]

Hello.

I’m making a 6-barreled muzzleloaded .44 BP pistol with the barrels attached to the handle similar to this pistol: https://youtu.be/1JPpH8SleJA with the exception that I’ll use a wooden handle instead of a metal.


So I wouder how can I attach the barrels to the handle? I thought about maybe using a strong glue, like JB-weld. I’ve used JB-weld before with good results for other applications. I made a test and glued together some pieces of barstock (as barrels) onto a piece of wood and tried to break it. I swing and threw it around to simulate heavy recoils and threw it on the ground - but the glue didn’t break. In order to break it I had to bend it from the side.


So, can it be considered safe to use JB-weld based on my experiments - or will the bond weaken overtime and perhaps one day crack and the barrels fly off? The total weight of the barrels are approximately 0.3 kg. I’ll glue the barrels together as one assemble and since I’m using multiple short barrels there will be plenty of area for the glue to bond on to the handle and less weight at the muzzle in comparison with one long barrel. (Observe that the glue doesn’t hold the recoil - the recoil is pushing against the grip, but the glue-bond holds the momentum which the recoil creates.)


Other than JB-weld, what’s my options?

 

[woodnbow]

Learn to weld? Sorry, I’m not sure the JB Weld is your friend here.

 

[expat_alaska]

I would silver solder the barrels rather than weld them.

 

[woodnbow]

I would silver solder the barrels rather than weld them.

And silver solder a breach as well. At least something to provide a mechanical attachment to the stock.

 

[arcticap]

What configuration or shape will the barrels be arranged in, a circle?
What shape are the barrels themselves, round , hex or octagon?
I'm having trouble imagining it.
Soldering may be a solution and a problem, since once they're bonded together there won't be any adjustments and they're not coming apart.
Maybe you need to design more than a handle.
Maybe you need to design a wooden structure to hold the barrels, possibly made out of multiple pieces of wood and properly carved with enough bulk to be used with hardware that can hold it all together using metal bands, clamps, and some nuts and bolts.
Carve a mini-barrel channel for each barrel or something, bind it all together with some hose clamps if you need to.
It's amazing how some people can work with wood to make anything that most would use metal to make.
It's just that the wood version would be bulkier and not as streamlined.
But wood can always be glued together and then reinforced with hardware.
Wood can even be bound together with wire, steel straps, leather, rubber, plastic who knows the limits.
You're only limited by your material.
Have you ever seen a clear plastic resin that can be molded into any shape?
Folks use it to make paper weights that contain all kinds of trinkets, like coins, insects, dice or other odd items.
Why limit your material to a handle and some barrels, when you might need a larger framework to hold 6 barrels.
How long are they?
I can't imagine how they would be fired off.
Can you show us any photos of what you have, a diagram or anything?
It sounds like a fun project, like a large duck foot pistol or a harmonica gun, except the barrels move instead of the ammo. holder.
Maybe you can start by sticking the barrels in a piece of wood in the configuration that you want, and then figure out how to fill in the gaps with more wood or whatever other structural material that you need.
Like if you place them in a circle, or in a semi-circle, then you need to build additional framework /structure to reinforce their position.
Do all of the barrels need to be touching along their whole length, or only at their breech?

Don't forget there's 3D printing that can make anything out of plastic, and even in industry those 3D plastic parts are often just held together with screws.
Maybe in some cases they can also be reinforced with glue.

 

[woodnbow]

Go primitive. Osage Orange handle and receiver glued with hide glue and bound with sinew?

 

[Revolver.45]

The receiver will be made out of wood. The receiver and the grip is one wooden piece. So I can’t weld or solder the barrels onto the receiver. The barrels are round, 3” long and will be assembled in a rectangular configuration similar to this gun: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/19/9c/6d199ccebee998a3398a2ca9ee05be7f.jpg


The barrels won’t move but will be fixed, I’ll have a mobile hammer system instead similar to the Rigby pistol in the previous video from Forgotten Weapons. I want to keep the pistol as compact as possible so a bulky wooden block to hold the barrels is not an option (neither would the mechanism allow it, and the touch holes located at the sides of the barrels need clearness in order for the pressure to escape - a wooden block blocking the touch holes will blow apart.)


Here’s a picture of the pistol and a little bit of explanation:


(The flat steel bar is glued to the wooden receiver/handle and the barrels are glued to the flat steel bar).


I really can’t see any other solution than using some kind of strong glue to create a bond between wood and steel. Based on my experiments with JB-weld it should provide more than enough strength to contain the momentum of the recoil (based on the design of the receiver and location of the barrels, I also believe that the recoil actually will create less momentum compared to a single action revolver - in this case the recoil will kick straight back to the hand (similar to a Rhino revolver) that’s true atleast when firing the lowest and the middle barrels.

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

Sorry, but I don't think I could ever learn to have confidence in a glued-together gun, Not part of my life. Good luck, though.

 

[Loyalist Dave]

It's been done, but long before they had access to epoxy....,

The flintlock fires all the barrels at once. In the other two the barrel assembly moves....



In this version the musket barrel is manually moved, then the lock is primed to fire each time...,



LD

 

[beag_nut]

This thread is a joke, right?
One step up or down from the computer-printed thingy's which explode in one's hand? Just LOVE the wood receiver idea! Not!

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

In that Sharpe's Rifles series about the Peninsular Campaign of the Napoleonic War they had something just like that revolving rifle. The strongest guy in the unit got to carry it.

 

[AlexanderA]

Forget the glue. I can see attaching all the barrels (by silver-soldering or welding) to a central spindle, and then extending the spindle, like a knife tang, all the way through the wooden grip. It's not clear, though, how the firing mechanism would be configured. What kind of ignition system are we talking about?

 

[woodnbow]

The receiver will be made out of wood. The receiver and the grip is one wooden piece. So I can’t weld or solder the barrels onto the receiver. The barrels are round, 3” long and will be assembled in a rectangular configuration similar to this gun: https://i.pinimg.com/originals/6d/19/9c/6d199ccebee998a3398a2ca9ee05be7f.jpg


The barrels won’t move but will be fixed, I’ll have a mobile hammer system instead similar to the Rigby pistol in the previous video from Forgotten Weapons. I want to keep the pistol as compact as possible so a bulky wooden block to hold the barrels is not an option (neither would the mechanism allow it, and the touch holes located at the sides of the barrels need clearness in order for the pressure to escape - a wooden block blocking the touch holes will blow apart.)


Here’s a picture of the pistol and a little bit of explanation:
View attachment 940503

(The flat steel bar is glued to the wooden receiver/handle and the barrels are glued to the flat steel bar).


I really can’t see any other solution than using some kind of strong glue to create a bond between wood and steel. Based on my experiments with JB-weld it should provide more than enough strength to contain the momentum of the recoil (based on the design of the receiver and location of the barrels, I also believe that the recoil actually will create less momentum compared to a single action revolver - in this case the recoil will kick straight back to the hand (similar to a Rhino revolver) that’s true atleast when firing the lowest and the middle barrels.

All the best.

 

[woodnbow]

In that Sharpe's Rifles series about the Peninsular Campaign of the Napoleonic War they had something just like that revolving rifle. The strongest guy in the unit got to carry it.

We do the same today. Who wants to carry the pig?

 

[TheOutlawKid]

I second the notion about not using glue...hitting the gun hard and even thrashing it around is no where near the amount of pressures and shock that the gun experiences when the black powder explodes...we just dont see it since it happens so fast.

 

[Jim Watson]

In this version the musket barrel is manually moved, then the lock is primed to fire each time...,

View attachment 940534

LD

That sure looks like the Nock Volley Gun which fires all seven barrels at the same time. Meant to clear the fighting tops of a French sailing ship, the recoil is ferocious.

 

[arcticap]

Whatever striker/hammer that you've devised should be able to be made longer so that you can add more wood to the front of your grip.
The wood needs to be lengthen by an inch or two.
Then you can attach the metal barrel plate with screws.

And also re-design the far side of the wooden grip that doesn't interfere with the firing assembly, to be able to attach a strong steel barrel support to the far side of the grip with screws.
The wood on the far side of the receiver would need to be made much wider and thicker.
Then install a wide, thin piece of hardened steel that would join the wooden grip to the side of the barrel assembly.
I'm sure that it would look butt ugly, and the far side of the grip would be asymmetrical.
The steel would need to have some angles built in like a side scope mount for a shotgun, to get the barrels to be lined up at the front of the gun, and to possibly also attach at the front of the grip.
But the steel piece would become the primary support for the weight of the assembled barrels, and then if the barrels could also be attached at the front then it would only make the barrel connection even stronger and more stable.
And then some structural adhesives could be used as secondary reinforcement to fill in any gaps that caused vibrations.

I think that you want to attach too much mass to too small & narrow of an anchor point by only using a single plate at the front of the gun to be the attachment for 6 barrels.

https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pr...MIoembptzU6wIVlI3ICh2FNAa1EAQYBCABEgIS5fD_BwE

https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pr...-structural-adhesive-2098/automotive-adhesive

https://www.autobodytoolmart.com/pr...MIoembptzU6wIVlI3ICh2FNAa1EAQYASABEgJSe_D_BwE

There's a 3M Project IBIS video on this page plus others
https://www.3m.com/3M/en_US/bonding-and-assembly-us/structural-adhesives/

Do you have any photos of any of your parts or assemblies?
Does each barrel have an individual breech plug?
Please show us any of the parts or assemblies that exist.

 

[kennysd]

I have been working on muzzle loaders for decades, as an antique gunsmith, etc.
Never would I recommend glue for barrels. front sight maybe, but heat will be a problem with any epoxy based glue.
black powder while low pressure can explode at funny times.. The loss of an eye or finger is a lot to ask glue to stop.
go slow here... silver solder with a cross piece like a shotgun would hold, but here again...it's not guaranteed.
good luck...Ken

 

[bannockburn]

Eyrie G. Dogg

Ah, the Nock Volley Gun you say! That would certainly come under the purview of Sergeant Patrick Harper of Sharpe's Rifles now, don't you think?

 

[Eyrie G. Dogg]

Sergeant Harper it is, Bannockburn. Good man.

 

[Dave T]

Other than JB-weld, what’s my options?

Including JB-Weld, I would say your only option is...don't fire it. Make it as a display piece if you want to but don't ever load it with black powder and let it get near an ignition source.

YMMV,
Dave

 

[Revolver.45]

I’ll go with a mechanical attachment instead. I’m not 100% sure about the ignition system yet, but perhaps flintlock or caplock - the idea here is to make channels that reach each individual barrel - similar to the Rigby pistol. Each barrel has an individual breech plug that’s a permanent/solid part of the barrel. I don’t have the parts yet. I still try to figure out the optimal design for attachment - based on strength and minimalism.



So my idea here is to use the gap between the barrels to hold them together against a bit of angle iron with two bolts and nuts. The angle iron is in turn attached with six small machine screws and nuts to the receiver - which will be made out of mild steel plate. (I’m just curious, would this mechanical attachment be strong enough to make the angle iron plate serve as the breechplug for hollow barrels without individual breechplugs (like a modern cartridge gun)?


The thickness of the barrel assemble is about 1.2” (height about 2”), and the receiver will only be about 0.2” thick (mild steel plate), and it’s attached off center. Could there be any issues here?


I will also need fastener to hold the barrel assemble together. What’s the best solution here? Steel wire? Cable ties made of steel? Steel banding?

 

[Mike 56]

I think the barrels are going to a tang and screws and\or a wedge key.

 

[arcticap]

(I’m just curious, would this mechanical attachment be strong enough to make the angle iron plate serve as the breechplug for hollow barrels without individual breechplugs (like a modern cartridge gun)?
The thickness of the barrel assemble is about 1.2”, and the receiver will only be about 0.2” thick (mild steel plate), and it’s attached off center. Could there be any issues here?

I'm sorry, IMO the concepts that you are describing are not safe or realistic if intending to build a working gun that's made to fire.
While in theory, almost anything can be made to fire once or a limited number of times. that's not what safe or responsible BP gun building is about.
Since I have no idea about the quality, size or weight of your intended parts, I have no basis to make helpful recommendations.

But individual threaded breech plugs are generally the only accepted method for sealing hollow .44 barrels.
There are screw barrel pistols that are loaded by unscrewing the barrel, but a solid steel receiver is still an important part of the concept of safety.
Below is a photo of the breech plug for a flintlock rifle, which pretty much has the same design as a small .45 Derringer pistol would have.
It's easy to see the amount of safety that's built into it by being made with such a large amount of quality steel.


https://americanlongrifles.org/forum/index.php?topic=52089.0

 

[woodnbow]

I’ll go with a mechanical attachment instead. I’m not 100% sure about the ignition system yet, but perhaps flintlock or caplock - the idea here is to make channels that reach each individual barrel - similar to the Rigby pistol. Each barrel has an individual breech plug that’s a permanent/solid part of the barrel. I don’t have the parts yet. I still try to figure out the optimal design for attachment - based on strength and minimalism.

View attachment 940781

So my idea here is to use the gap between the barrels to hold them together against a bit of angle iron with two bolts and nuts. The angle iron is in turn attached with six small machine screws and nuts to the receiver - which will be made out of mild steel plate. (I’m just curious, would this mechanical attachment be strong enough to make the angle iron plate serve as the breechplug for hollow barrels without individual breechplugs (like a modern cartridge gun)?


The thickness of the barrel assemble is about 1.2” (height about 2”), and the receiver will only be about 0.2” thick (mild steel plate), and it’s attached off center. Could there be any issues here?


I will also need fastener to hold the barrel assemble together. What’s the best solution here? Steel wire? Cable ties made of steel? Steel banding?

Welding is your friend here. What is the breach? Do you drill the “barrels” to a specific depth and then leave them solid at the breach end? The two machine screws do not physically attach the barrels to your angle plate unless the barrel assembly is welded.