V Max for SD?

Discussion in 'Handloading and Reloading' started by JamieC, Feb 28, 2014.

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  1. JamieC

    JamieC Member

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    Just getting started loading for 223, started with CFE223, just tried some H335, liking it. Thinking about loaded some SD rounds, originally thought VMaxs would be a good choice, relatively cheap, available. As I research a bit more, seems the 'V' stands for varmint, these probably wouldn't get the penetration needed at least it looks that way from a few vids I've seen, any thoughts?
     
  2. 788Ham

    788Ham Member

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    How far are you wanting them to penetrate? If used for SD, after the first 3", they're inside any body cavity anyway ! Try them on a gal. jug full of water, there will be your answer.
     
  3. Gadawg88

    Gadawg88 Member

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    Can't say I have first hand experience, but from all i have read they would not be the best choice if you are purpose building a SD round, unless you are defending yourself from a prairie dog attack.:). Could they work, sure. Head shot, drt no question. Light clothing, no bone contact probably massive damage. I load them in 7.62x39 for target and plinking. I think a good SMK hunting bullet as heavy as your barrel twist will stabilize would be a better choice.
     
  4. JamieC

    JamieC Member

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    I'm probably hung up on the FBI 12" thing, from what I've seen, the VMax rounds don't penetrate that far but really *uck things up for the first six inches or so. All that energy dumped into a body should get someone's attention, convince them to do something else. Still not sure.
     
  5. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    The Hornady TAP LEO ammo is basically V-Max.

    Look here for ballistics gel tests in a tab in each bullet weight.

    http://www.hornadyle.com/products/rifle-ammunition/223-remington/40-gr-tap-urban

    I use 55 grain V-Max or Nosler Ballistic-Tips (Same thing = Varmint bullet) for HD. loads.

    Atilla the Hun on crack would be DRT with a double-tap to the chest.

    They are simply devastating in any fluid medium.
    Without undue risk of over-penetration shooting through a BG and three walls.

    They also feed slicker then owl snot!

    IMO: The FBI penetration requirement is meaningless inside your house.
    You are very unlikely to need to shoot through auto glass or a car door inside your own home.
    In fact, that very requirement could jump up and bite you, or a neighbor, if you miss the BG.

    But what about if an arm gets in the way you might ask?
    Well if you hit a BG in the arm with a .223 V-Max.
    He will be missing a working arm to assault you with.

    rc
     
    Last edited: Feb 28, 2014
  6. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    While rc's comments on penetration are valid for a pure "home defense" round, I note that your original post was asking about "self defense" ammunition.

    To me this denotes possible use in a variety of scenarios, many of which (eg: truck gun), might leave you wishing you had a round capable of defeating light to moderate intermediate barriers such as car doors, glass or vegetation.

    A good bonded core bullet like the Speer Gold Dot or Federal Fusion will give you much better results through light barriers than any varmint bullet, while offering somewhat better penetration in BG's as well.

    Depending on where and how the weapon is used, extra penetration can be good, or bad. You have to make the decision based on what you think the most likely scenario is for YOU.

    If you watch RMR, they occasionally have excellent deals on .223 Gold Dots or Fusions, just don't waste time if you see 'em available.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  7. JamieC

    JamieC Member

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    Swampman, good point, yeah, PURE home defense, I'd probably grab the 12 gauge first or a hand gun. SD for my use with the AR would be at a little distance, I saw some Barnes TSX at the local Bass Pro. What exactly is RMR?
    Hmmm, as I think about this some more, (too much thinking makes my head hurt), the V-Max WOULD be great inside the house IF I had to use them there. At some distance, say 50-100 yards, (irons and a red dot on the gun), if I 'popped' a BG, it would seem he would probably try to get further away from me, not closer, if nothing else, (ASSuming he's still conscious), would probably wished he'd spent his time doing something else! Hornady doesn't recommend 'em for any kind of barrier penetration, decisions, decisions. I guess I'll have to buy some of both, the wife will be thrilled!
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  8. TfflHndn

    TfflHndn Member

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    RMR is Rocky Mountain Reloading. Good source for shooter stuff, reasonable prices mostly. Check 'em out.
     
  9. bluetopper

    bluetopper Member

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    One penetrating shot from a fully charged loaded 223 anywhere on the human body will stop someone from their dastardly deeds.....regardless of projectile.

    I'm talking real world here.

    If you're hunting mid-size game or larger or if you want group sizing at 100yds or better, yes bullet selection is critical.
     
    Last edited: Mar 1, 2014
  10. JamieC

    JamieC Member

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    I guess they don't always have 223 ammo, they have some AR parts for good prices, no AR ammo or components at the moment.
     
  11. oldpapps

    oldpapps Member

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    I'm with RC on this.

    Double tap, if the threat continues being a threat, double tap again, if the threat continues being a threat, make a slow shot to the nose, if the threat continues to be a threat, turn and run.

    Put the threat behind armor, just run. To continue being at threat, they will have to follow and that removes the armor factor. If they are not a threat, I don't care and have no reason to shoot.

    I use DogTown 55 HPs :)
     
  12. fireflyfather

    fireflyfather Member

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    ^
    This.

    I was concerned about this, so I ran a test:

    http://landryreloadingdocs.com/6.html
     
  13. fireflyfather

    fireflyfather Member

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    Um, a bunch of guys who used M855 in Mogadishu may have a bone to pick with your statement.

    Depends on the body type of the assailant, and shot placement is key. "anywhere on the human body" is kind of a ridiculous claim.
     
  14. rcmodel

    rcmodel Member in memoriam

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    Nice test!!

    Good work!

    rc
     
  15. matrem

    matrem Member

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    First of all, V-Max & similar bullets will usually penetrate deeper at 100 yards than they will at 10 yards, and deeper yet at 200-300 yards.(at least in flesh)

    And if having to shoot through car doors & such is required, that BG better be armed well & you not having any other possible escape option.
    Not saying that couldn't happen, but..

    I've seen enough of what varmint bullets do to flesh at those velocities, therefore I keep 55gr Blitzkings either in one of the ARs, or at the top of the mag stack.
     
  16. fireflyfather

    fireflyfather Member

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    Yes. Varmint bullets depend on velocity to create fragmentation/bullet breakup. At 100 yards, though, I don't think they are going to be penetrating steel, brick, or much hardwood. A good hard barrier (like a windshield) might cause fragmentation even at lower velocities. They certainly splatter pretty seriously on a steel gong at 100 yards. Much more splatter than M193 type projectiles. In fact, it's been shredding my wooden target stand for that gong much worse than ball projectiles.

    I have seen a gel test of V-max ammo at 100 yards, or something close to it. It was still pretty impressive fragmentation.

    As far as safety of bystanders/neighbors is concerned, in the sort of urban environment where I live, it would be hard for a shot to travel more than 50 yards without hitting SOMETHING, so I would rather not be punching more holes than necessary, should it ever come to that.

    As for penetrating barriers in self defense, I think the context matters. On a large rural property, what you said may be somewhat less true than in an urban setting.
     
  17. ultratec1

    ultratec1 Member

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    Here is a small "test" that I tried when I was at the range one day. I had acquired a 1" thick piece of plexi glass and since it was a heavy thick object I wanted to see what a bullet would do. I shot 62gr green tip 5.56 and 55gr v-max over 24.5gr of varget out of a 16" bull barrel. Here is the results

    The top hole is the size of a quarter and this was shot with a v-max. The small pin hole to the lower right was the 62gr green tip. The hole with the large cracks around it was the .357. The picture on the right is the 62gr.

    After this I walked shots left to right and literally cut the flexiglass in half.

    This sold me on the v-max as a defensive round.
     

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  18. 788Ham

    788Ham Member

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    One thing I caught right off, if its SD, and in your house, barn, whatever building, thats fine. HOWEVER, out to 100 yards, maybe 150 yards, is this called SD? A jury might have a few questions to ask you if this were to come about, is this then hunting, or SD ?
     
  19. trigga

    trigga Member

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    I know the TAP is designed for defense. Don't know if it's the same v max bullet but those seem to fragment and not over penetrate. I have like two boxes lying around which I'll never use...
     
  20. Dmitri Popov

    Dmitri Popov Member

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    I do not believe penetration will be an issue if engaging your typical aggressor. The more explosive V-Max may well give an advantage by causing more tissue damage. In any case over-penetration is always a concern in todays world. People would be amazed at the penetration that even specialty frangible ammo provides.

    The V-Max bullet should provide adequate performance against most targets except possibly those with body armor. And if you find yourself in a situation where you are needing to defeat body armor, you my friend have made a grave tactical error.
     
  21. Walkalong

    Walkalong Moderator Staff Member

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    The civilian would have little use of ammo that shoots through hard targets to get at people. I can see the prosecutor now. If someone comes in your home after you wearing body armor, you have really big problems.

    I would be happy with the 55 or 60 Gr V (or Z) Max for protection. You can always keep one 20 round mag of Nosler 64 Gr Bonded around if you're really worried about it. Or use the 62 Gr penetrator round, but inside your house the V Max would serve 99.9% of your needs, IMO. I just don't see anyone advancing through a hail of .223 V Max, unless they came in head to toe body armor and very well prepared, and in that case, your probably dead already anyway.
     
  22. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    Originally posted by 788Ham
    THE FOLLOWING IS NOT, AND SHOULD IN NO WAY BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE, I AM NOT A LAWYER! Hopefully someone competent will be along soon to correct any of my errors or omissions.

    I'm not familiar with Colorado law, but in Texas if you are in fear for your life or serious bodily injury, or for the lives of others (including serious bodily injury) and the actor presents an immediate AND credible threat, then the use of deadly force for self defense is justifiable.

    What this means is that if a guy yells at you "You ran over my dog, I'm gonna kill your sorry a$$", while waving a knife, you wouldn't be justified in shooting him from 150 yards away, since the threat, while credible, is not immediate. He would have to get very close before he became a real threat with a knife.

    If however, he drops the knife, reaches behind the seat of his pickup, grabs a bolt action rifle and starts to assume a firing position using his vehicle as cover, the threat has now become both credible and immediate. In Texas you would now be justified in using deadly force if you truly believed that you were in imminent danger of death or serious bodily injury.

    There is no requirement that a person under attack be in a building under their ownership in order to keep themselves from being murdered, nor is there a specified maximum distance for the use of deadly force to be justified.
    It depends on the totality of the circumstances.

    THE PRECEDING IS NOT, AND SHOULD IN NO WAY BE CONSTRUED AS LEGAL ADVICE, I AM NOT A LAWYER!

    I will say that if there's any way to NOT kill someone while keeping yourself and loved ones safe and preserving your own personal moral code, then don't kill anyone.

    Even putting moral and ethical questions aside, a homicide is likely to cost you a lot in lawyers fees.
     
  23. spitballer

    spitballer Member

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    Call me old fashioned but personally I wouldn't use anything but a ball round or slug for SD. If it's good enough for the cops, it's good enough for me. Might even be more defensible in court.
     
  24. Double Naught Spy

    Double Naught Spy Sus Venator

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    While double-tapping multiple times isn't a bad strategy, it isn't one you can rely on being able to accomplish. Far too many people in self defense shootings don't get a chance to make a second shot for a variety of reasons, gun malfunction, gun damage, and/or gun loss being at the top of the list.

    Okay, you are old fashioned. I don't know of any police agencies that are using simple ball ammo in their guns. They are all using either frangible, ballistic tip ammo, or expanding ammo of one type or another in their rifles depending on their perceived needs. I would not be surprised if some are using ball, but by and large, ball is NOT the typical choice for LEOs.

    LOL, it isn't because of the body armor that you have really big problems.
     
  25. Swampman

    Swampman Old Fart

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    Originally posted by spitballer
    "Ball" ammo is generally considered to refer to military style full metal jacket projectile ammunition. Police forces, not being restricted by the Hague and Geneva accords, generally use soft or hollow point projectiles to increase the chances of quick incapacitation to criminals and reduce overpenetration which can endanger others behind the intended target.
     
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