VA CCW list published by Roanoke Times 3/11

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OK. So the paper retracted the list but has Trejbal suffered any consequences for his recklessness yet?
 
In a news item posted by the Fredericksburg Lance-Star ...

Highlights:
  • A committee is being appointed to "study" the issue of public disclosure and the limits to access to such data on concealed-carry citizens.
  • The chairman of the committee believes that concealed-carry records made public are no different than other licenses ... like doctors. Doctors? Why not pea-gravel salesmen?
  • While the FOIA group won't meet until June, there's no indication of when or where this newly-empowered committee will be meeting. Heck, they should publish that information on simple moral grounds. No Brownie points to the winning guess as to why no mention was made of this. :tired:

Basically, if you want any action, particularly if you want the right action, this fight isn't hardly over.

According to the VCDL, both the Fredericksburg Free-Lance and the King George Journal Press are both continuing to publish this data, though I have yet to find that fact on either of these two web sites. (Interesting names for these two bastions of freedom, eh??)

Should concealed-gun information be public?
State to consider access to concealed weapon permits.

BY CHELYEN DAVIS

RICHMOND -- A state committee will study whether concealed weapon permit information should remain public record after a Roanoke newspaper ignited controversy by posting on the Internet a list of permit holders.

The Virginia Freedom of Information Advisory Committee yesterday decided to appoint a subcommittee to investigate the issue over the next few months.

The controversy started just last week when the Roanoke Times published, on its Web site, a list of all concealed-weapon permit holders in the state.

The list came from the state police, which is required by law to maintain that list, but the information is also subject to the Freedom of Information Act and is public record.

After numerous furious e-mails and phone calls from the public, the Roanoke Times took the list off its Web site. But Sen. Edd Houck, D-Spotsylvania County, said he was already getting calls and e-mails, particularly from other state legislators, who want to consider changing the law.

"There's a clash here between personal, private information and the public's right to know," Houck said after the FOIA council meeting yesterday. "It's a hot topic right now and a lot of people are very anxious about it. It's opened up all types of other issues."

Few people came to speak at the council's meeting yesterday, although Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, spoke and said he has requested an opinion from the attorney general on the issue.

Jim Kadison of the Virginia Citizens Defense League--a gun-rights organization--said his group is concerned about "possible abuse" of the list. He suggested creating a list of permit-holders for police and then a separate, public one that permit holders could opt off of.

Houck, who chairs the council, said he will also chair the subcommittee that will study this issue. He is worried that the issue may open the door to those who would like to see Virginia eliminate its permit requirement for a concealed weapon altogether, and said he wants to keep the focus on the public information issue.

However, Houck said, he also thinks consistency is important, and he pointed out that the rules governing the openness of concealed carry permits is no different than the rules governing other state permits--like doctor's licenses.

The Free Lance-Star periodically publishes the names of Fredericksburg area permit holders when the permits are issued.

The entire FOIA council will meet again in June.

Chelyen Davis: 804/782-9362
Email: [email protected]
Click to expand...
 
Update from the Roanoke Times:

State advisory council to examine privacy of handgun permit list
The Virginia Freedom of Information Advisory Council will study whether it can restrict access to the list of people with concealed-handgun permits.
By Michael Sluss
(804) 697-1585

RICHMOND -- A state advisory council will examine the possibility of restricting access to information about Virginians who are licensed to carry concealed handguns, responding to a controversy sparked by The Roanoke Times.

The Virginia Freedom of Information Advisory Council on Monday created a subcommittee to study the protection of "personal identifying information." Among other things, the group will consider the merits of allowing public access to a state police database listing the names and addresses of every Virginian with a permit to carry a concealed handgun.

"This group has got some good public policy work cut out for it," said state Sen. Edd Houck, D-Spotsylvania County, the chairman of the council.

The council is made up of state legislators, government officials, media representatives and citizens.

The Roanoke Times ignited a firestorm last week when it posted the database on its Web site along with a column by editorial writer Christian Trejbal. The newspaper removed the database from its site the following day, but continues to receive criticism for posting the information.

Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, has asked for an attorney general's opinion on whether the state police should provide such information. That opinion and the advisory council's work could pave the way for legislation that would restrict access to the data.

Nutter told the council that he hopes to "find a middle ground that, bottom line, prevents a list like this from being put out in the public domain."

"It doesn't mean it wouldn't be available in other places," said Nutter, who later noted that the information still could be obtained from city and county circuit court clerks.

Jim Kadison, a member of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, said the advisory council should focus on preventing "abuse of the list" without restricting all public access to the data. The VCDL has requested the state police data through the Freedom of Information Act and has used it to identify potential members, Kadison said. Kadison raised the idea of allowing permit holders to have their names removed from lists provided to the public.

Since February 2005, the Department of State Police has received 17 requests under FOIA for lists of Virginians with concealed-handgun permits, according to information the agency released at The Roanoke Times' request last week.

Four of those requests came from political organizations, including one each from the state Democratic and Republican parties. Four came from newspapers, three came from VCDL and one came from Republican Del. Scott Lingamfelter of Prince William County.

The Virginia Freedom of Information Council has previously held that the gun permit list is a public record. In a 2001 advisory opinion, the council's executive director, Maria Everett, wrote that "no specific statutory exemptions" apply to the list. The opinion was issued in response to a Chesterfield County permit holder who had received solicitations and political mailings addressed to "Virginia Gun Owner" and "Concealed Handgun Permit Holder."

Virginia and 16 other states treat information about concealed-handgun permit holders as a public matter, according to the Reporters Committee for Freedom of the Press.

Houck said the advisory council must weigh the public's interest in accessing the information against the privacy concerns of permit holders.

"I really think it's a classic example of when two fundamental rights are bumping up against each other," Houck said.

Staff writer Laurence Hammack contributed to this report.
Click to expand...
 
ccw9mm,

The Free-Lance Star and King George Press have been publishing the names in their papers, not on their websites. VCDL was largely responsible for getting them to stop putting the information on the Internet. The FLS is basically an anti-gun rag, the King George Press is similar. I used to live in those parts a few years ago.
 
VCDL

That's why I joined last Saturday - if you're in VA and you haven't joined, then join!

They do an awful lot with those small numbers - imagine what they would be doing if they had all of the CHP holders, let alone the non CHP pro-2nd crowd.
Click to expand...

I appreciate all that the VCDL has been doing to resolve this issue. However, as long as the VCDL maintains its stand against Smith & Wesson I will not join. Almost every one of my shooting friends feels the same way. Anyone who feels that Smith & Wesson should have just gone out of business instead of making a fairly toothless deal needs to rethink things. Not to mention the VCDL stance gives more power to the anti gunners than the Smith & Wesson deal. I have heard numerous anti gun groups refer to this stance as “The rattlesnakes turning on themselves”. What hurts our cause more, a gun company making a deal to save millions of dollars and stay in business or our own organizations turning on gun manufacturers? If you read through the “agreement with the devil”, as many like to call it, you will find that most other gun manufacturers do these things of their own free will. As I said earlier, thank you VCDL for what you are doing on this issue but I will not join an organization that attacks gun manufacturers. However, sleep well VCDL knowing that Bill and Hillary support what you are doing 100% and hope you manage to put Smith & Wesson out of business. If there is anything they can do to help your cause just let them know. ;)
 
So Shooting Ace, have you drafted any sort of a letter to the VCDL stating your opinion? It's not a monolithic block by any means.

I'm a VCDL member and I personally think the "boycott S&W" thing is pretty dumb as well and have brought it up before and will again.
 
Shooting Ace,

It took me three years to join VCDL. I don't agree with all of their stances and policies, but they do more good than any other gun association in VA. Their vigilance has beaten back many an anti-gunners' agenda, and they have been largely responsible for the preemption of Local laws conflicting with State Law. That's just the tip of the iceberg of what they do for gunowners in VA. I suggest you and your buddies look past the ban and join up. I figure it's like being a member of the NRA where I don't agree with everything they do, but since their positives outweigh the negatives, it's worth supporting them.

For what it's worth, I disagree about the S&W Deal with the Clintons being toothless, as you will find here:
http://www.actionamerica.org/guns/swbetray.html
http://hunting.about.com/library/weekly/aa010515.htm
 
Re: RKE Times...VCDL

I plan to join the VCDL in April. As far as I can tell, they are the only active pro-gun group in the Commonwealth. It used to be that the Second Amendment Sisters were active, but I'm not really hearing a lot out of them. I had queried them about Carillion's Lexington Hospital's no gun signs, but no response. I feel like the VCDL is the best choice for me. I don't have a problem with the NRA either. I've been a NRA member for a while now.

Stanzi
 
FOIA Part 2

Ok,

Since the first FOIA worked out pretty well, I have been talking with Cngerms about possible Future FOIAs to find out more stuff.

I plan on FOIAing the Christiansburg Police Dept on their role in the bomb threat at Mr. Trejbal's place of residence. Here's what I plan on asking for:
  • Transcript of the 911 Call
  • A recording of the 911 Call
  • Witness Statements, Police Reports
  • Transcript of Radio and E-mail comms between VA State Police and Christiansburg PD

For the VA State Police I plan on FOIAing the following:
  • Transcript of Radio and E-mail comms between VA State Police and Christiansburg
I have a list of contacts, but is there anything more I need to add to this?

Thanks!
 
Re:Advertisers Feeling The Heat?

I've had two real estate agents respond to my email letter that I sent out. Has any one else had any responses? I got this note this morning it says: "Why are you holding us liable for this ad? What about Century 21, Remax, and the other REALTOR companies that advertise with the Roanoke Times????.."

Give us time, we'll notify every advertizer of the boycott by law abiding CHP holders.

I don't know about you, but I am tired of being demonized by the liberal print media. Many years ago, the Rockbridge Advocate printed the names of every CHP holder in Rockbridge County, Lexington, and Buena Vista--including the names of people who were rejected (this was before the law change). The editor and the publisher is a flamming liberal by the name of Doug Harwood. He has written a piece in the March 2007 issue about what the Rockbridge County Board of Supervisors tried to pull on law abiding pro-gun citizens in the area. There are two other papers in Rockbridge County, both liberal. Interesting about them, the Weekly had a registered sex offender working as a photographer. The Gazette's ace reporter was convicted of molesting his step daughter.

Stanzi
 
I will take another look at VCDL. I must say it really bugs me to see them at gun show saying boycott any gun manufacturer. I think this does them more harm than they could ever imagine. The first time I saw them at a gun show I thought they had actually let some left wing anti gun group into the show. I was quite shocked to learn it was VCDL. When I tried to talk to them about their stance they got borderline belligerent and kept spouting the same old story over and over which is typically a sign that someone really doesn’t know what they are talking about, they are just repeating what they’ve been told. You see this a lot from Democrats. I looked at the articles you referenced tinygnat219 but just like everything that is referenced about Smith & Wesson it is a lot of The Sky is Falling and this is going to happen. The newest of the Articles was from 2001. Show me something that actually happened. I see a lot of we’ll wait and see with no follow up. That would tell me that the Sky is Falling attitude was an overreaction. I do see your point about the VCDL doing a lot of good. I can agree with that. I am a Benefactor Member of the NRA and they do some things that I do not agree with. However they don’t do anything that is totally against the values they stand for, such as trying to put gun manufacturers out of business. It just doesn’t make sense to me. To me it’s kind of like a church saying we are going to worship God 6 days a week but on the 7th we are going to worship Satan. It just doesn’t add up. Just my 2 cents. Sorry for getting off topic.
 
Why are you holding us liable for this ad?
Click to expand...

That is the exact response we'd like to get from the RT's advertisers. Now, hopefully someone will get ticked off enough to call the RT and tell them to fix their mess and clean the poop out of their nest. This is why I've resisted pulling email addresses off our lists unless they're just dead emails w/ delivery failures.

If any of you reply to such emails, please assure them that we are boycotting ALL RT advertisers and ask them to contact the RT to voice their displeasure. I asked one real estate agent to do so yesterday, and she emailed me after calling the RT to read them the riot act. Our email campaign is working!

The RT said this was the biggest controversy in their history, so I imagine this is the one of the few times, if not the first time, their advertisers have been pressured. The heat is on!
 
I will repeat myself, but in different words:

Some people who get handgun carry licenses do so
in response to death threats--not just the psycho ex-spouse
or ex-lover or crazed stalker--and may have had to relocate
in response to the threat. But by law, the handgun carry permit
must be issued with the permit holder's legal address--which
they may wish to keep secret from whomever made the death
threat in the first place.

If the Roanoke Times gave a crazed stalker the current legal
address of an intended victim, would the Roanoke Times take
responsibility for the consequences?

A few years ago I went through this very issue with a
writer for the local newspaper. AT that time, only law
officers or judges had access to permit holders' names and
addresses on a need to know basis.

Does the Roanoke Times go through public records and
publish the names and home addresses of doctors or
anyone else with a state license or permit?
 
Pound away

Now WTOP news, which is owned by the Washington Post, has an article that we have seen before over the whole CHP list. However, they have a Comment section. Bombards Away!

http://www.wtop.com/index.php?nid=600&sid=1092887&comments=true

Here's the link and text of the article:
http://www.wtop.com/?nid=600&sid=1092887

Va. Panel to Study Access to Concealed Gun Permit Data
Mar 20th - 11:53am


RICHMOND, Va. (AP) - A state advisory council will consider whether public access to a list of Virginians with concealed handgun permits should be restricted, after a newspaper published an online database containing the personal information of permit holders.

The Virginia Freedom of Information Advisory Council on Monday created a subcommittee to study the protection of personal identifying information.

"There's a clash here between personal, private information and the public's right to know," said the council's chairman, Sen. R. Edward Houck, D-Spotsylvania.

On its Web site last week, The Roanoke Times published a database listing the names and addresses of more than 135,000 Virginians who are licensed to carry concealed weapons.

The database accompanied a column on Sunshine Week, a national initiative to promote the importance of open government and records. The permit information is public record and is subject to the Freedom of Information act.

The newspaper said hundreds of readers complained on its message board and to a gun-rights group that publishing the names violated the privacy of law-abiding citizens and gave potential criminals information that would help them find victims.

The newspaper removed the database from its Web site the next day because of concern that some of the names should not be made public, president and publisher Debbie Meade said in an article published last week.

At the council's meeting Monday, Del. Dave Nutter, R-Christiansburg, said he has asked for the attorney general's opinion on whether the state police should provide such information. The police keep track of the permits so its officers can find out who has a gun when making an arrest or traffic stop.

Nutter also said he plans to introduce legislation in next year's General Assembly to restrict the information to law enforcement officers.

Jim Kadison of the Virginia Citizens Defense League, a gun rights organization, said his group is concerned about "possible abuse" of the concealed permit information. He suggested creating a list of permit-holders for police and a separate, public one that permit holders could ask to be removed from.

The council, made up of state legislators, government officials, media representatives and citizens, has previously held that the gun permit list is a public record.

In a 2001 advisory opinion, the council's executive director, Maria Everett, wrote that "no specific statutory exemptions" apply to the list. The opinion was issued in response to a Chesterfield County permit holder who had received solicitations and political mailings addressed to "Virginia Gun Owner" and "Concealed Handgun Permit Holder."
 
I appreciate all that the VCDL has been doing to resolve this issue. However, as long as the VCDL maintains its stand against Smith & Wesson I will not join.
Click to expand...

I joined and buy Smith & Wesson products. If VCDL wants to support a boycott of them fine. Just like I think the NRA is too passive in their approach to the antigun nuts, I'm a life member. You gotta' pay to play.:)
 
I'm just happy you guys managed to get the list taken off the web page. Those of us in NY are still fighting to get the list taken down. It had been buried but today they updated the "format" of the web page and it's once again easy access :banghead:
 
FOIA the people asking for the list

Jay_Anderson,

Ooog, I think we got lucky in having VA's pulled so fast. One thing you might do, is submit a FOIA of who is asking for the list. I did that in VA and got a list of people and organizations who have been asking for the whole thing from the VA State Police. I have attached the .pdf file earlier in this thread. This gives you a list to provide to your Pro-Gun group of people to contact asking what they have been using the list for.

Another way is to have your group lobby for an exemption to the State FOIA list.

Just some rough thoughts. It's early here yet.
 
Yeah, we've done most of that, had a meeting with a senator and assemblymen at one of the local gun clubs, contacted the NRA, contacted the advertisers from the paper... It's a shame really how much the paper is "Sticking to this". Here's a link to the actual article that spurred this whole thing

http://www.thejournalnews.com/apps/pbcs.dll/article?AID=/20061210/NEWS01/612100348/1018

wow, December 10th they did this... Time sure does fly lol
 
I will take another look at VCDL. I must say it really bugs me to see them at gun show saying boycott any gun manufacturer. I think this does them more harm than they could ever imagine. The first time I saw them at a gun show I thought they had actually let some left wing anti gun group into the show. I was quite shocked to learn it was VCDL. When I tried to talk to them about their stance they got borderline belligerent and kept spouting the same old story over and over which is typically a sign that someone really doesn’t know what they are talking about, they are just repeating what they’ve been told. You see this a lot from Democrats. I looked at the articles you referenced tinygnat219 but just like everything that is referenced about Smith & Wesson it is a lot of The Sky is Falling and this is going to happen. The newest of the Articles was from 2001. Show me something that actually happened. I see a lot of we’ll wait and see with no follow up. That would tell me that the Sky is Falling attitude was an overreaction. I do see your point about the VCDL doing a lot of good. I can agree with that. I am a Benefactor Member of the NRA and they do some things that I do not agree with. However they don’t do anything that is totally against the values they stand for, such as trying to put gun manufacturers out of business. It just doesn’t make sense to me. To me it’s kind of like a church saying we are going to worship God 6 days a week but on the 7th we are going to worship Satan. It just doesn’t add up. Just my 2 cents. Sorry for getting off topic.
Click to expand...

Arguably, the S&W boycott and the resulting management change SAVED Smith & Wesson. Look where they are now--making the .460 and .500 X-frames, new full-capacity pistols, and high-class AR variants. That would NOT have happened had they remained under their previous management, and the S&W agreement would have prohibited them from even making full-cap pistols and AR's.

Worse, if you read the "agreement" as the legal document it is, it would have required S&W to cut out any distributors and dealers who sell "assault weapons" or full-cap mags. It was an attempt to use S&W's market share to bring about a permanent de facto AWB.

Had S&W been allowed to painlessly hold to the agreement, which would have given the administration leverage to extort Glock and others into also signing it (the only reason they didn't was because they saw S&W's posterior frying), then the gun market in 2007 would be a lot more constrained.
 
The boycott is held in place by 3 or 4 angry 'people who don't know how to pull a double acting trigger'. No amount of rational thought or discussion is going to change their stance on the ridiculous and ineffectual boycott. As Benezra sagely points out, who's more successful, S&W or VCDL? .... Hmm... let me think about this a minute...

:uhoh:

uhh... S&W?

Nevertheless, consider this. On the outside as a non member you have essentially no voice. As a member, you at least have a voice. No group is perfect and I belong to many as I'm sure others do here. The only way for US as a demographic to start taking back ground in the political arena that has been taken from us is to UNITE. On some items we agree to disagree, but do it amicably and concentrate on what unites us. If we do this, we win.
 
FOIA Part 2 is now in session

Here's my FOIA letter to the Christiansburg Police Department:

March 21, 2007

To: Christiansburg, VA Police Department

Dear LT Mark Sisson, Chief Brumfeld:

I am making a request under the Virginia Freedom of Information Act (§2.2-3700, et seq.).

This FOIA Request is in reference to the "suspicious package" incident at Christian Trejbal's home on 13 March 07. The information I request for this incident is as follows:

-A copy of the 911 Call, either cassette tape, or other electronic copy (like an MP3)
-A transcript of the 911 Call
-A copy of any and all witness statements, and police reports
-A transcript of any conversation or E-mails between the Christiansburg PD, the Christiansburg Fire Department, and the VA State Police Bomb Squad

Pursuant to the Act, I request that within five working days you (a) provide me with all the records I request; (b) if the records are exempt from disclosure, identify which records are going to be withheld pursuant to which specific Code provision; or (c) if the records will be provided in part, identify which records are being withheld pursuant to which specific Code provision, and release the remaining, nonexempt records to me.

If it is not practically possible to provide the records within five working days, please notify me that you will need an additional seven working days, as provided in the Act.

As provided by FOIA, please provide an estimate of the costs of meeting my request before undertaking the task. Also, an acknowledgement of receipt of this request would be appreciated.

If you have questions concerning my request, please contact me at (Phone deleted) so that we can work something out.

Please be advised that I am prepared to pursue whatever legal remedy necessary to obtain access to the requested records.

I look forward to your response.

Sincerely,

TJ Parmele
Click to expand...

I figured it was time to see what, if any, other information we can find out about this. After all, Sunshine Week was my inspiration!
 
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